Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

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S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:23 pm Well I can safely say this the first words I have ever read anywhere praising the A2/2 . Poor reliablity from day one ,excessive times in for repair, smokebox retaining nuts falling out the saddle due to excessive vibration , frames cracking due to excessive front end length and the resultant forces etc etc. A A2/2 better than a P2 really ??
Yes. I have documented evidence which shows the excellence of the A2/2.
Taking the word of (no offence to him ) an apprentice, as to what was being decided is at best questionable.As to what actually happended at Board meetings etc . What possible first hand knowledge would he actually have, I would imagine minimal if anything at all, other than rumours and gossip. Dont forget not everything is writtten down in minutes at any meeting .
Actually the L.N.E.R. board minutes are incredibly detailed and pretty much do write down and corroborate everything Hardy has written on. Apologies Mick, I have the benefit of eight years worth of work and access to archive documentation over you on this one.
Surely a CME has the final decision and /or influence to his staff as to what designs are being put forward to the Board. It is well known GN was next inline for conversion to a A3. There was however nothing to stop Thompson saying use the next Loco up for conversion instead of GN either. Musgrave would have informed Thompson of what he had decided. Such rebuilding or in this case scrapping of the P2's and a A3. Have huge financial commitments and approval by the Company and their shareholders, they would have the final say .
No, the C.M.E. never had that authority. No, Great Northern was never in the frame to be modified to A3 standard. Musgrave did not have to inform Thompson or the drawing office of his decision at all - they are different functions within the business and the details of the individual locomotives involved are largely irrelevant to the financial and engineering departments.
No, I dont think I will be buying the book. It is all becoming somewhat ancient history, heading towards 80 plus years ago, and decisions by whoever they were or not they all are now part of history as well . Nothing written in one book now ,will change many entrenched attitudes to Thompson or his designs and decisions, good or bad.
Suit yourself, Mick but very disappointing.
60027Merlin wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:23 pm With reference to the A2/2s working in Scotland out of Haymarket, Dundee Tay Bridge and Aberdeen Ferryhill Sheds. Sooner, rather then later, they were found to be unreliable on a regular basis, resulting in loco availability problems. They could not cope with the allotted passenger turns especially being prone to slip and eventually Peppercorn A2s were drafted in to take over their work.

It was not a case of being banished from Scotland, they were simply not up to the job required on this section of the ECML.
That I am afraid is not true and I have evidence to show this quite substantially within the body of the book.
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3727
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by mick b »

S.A.C. Martin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 11:08 am
mick b wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:23 pm Well I can safely say this the first words I have ever read anywhere praising the A2/2 . Poor reliablity from day one ,excessive times in for repair, smokebox retaining nuts falling out the saddle due to excessive vibration , frames cracking due to excessive front end length and the resultant forces etc etc. A A2/2 better than a P2 really ??
Yes. I have documented evidence which shows the excellence of the A2/2.
Taking the word of (no offence to him ) an apprentice, as to what was being decided is at best questionable.As to what actually happended at Board meetings etc . What possible first hand knowledge would he actually have, I would imagine minimal if anything at all, other than rumours and gossip. Dont forget not everything is writtten down in minutes at any meeting .
Actually the L.N.E.R. board minutes are incredibly detailed and pretty much do write down and corroborate everything Hardy has written on. Apologies Mick, I have the benefit of eight years worth of work and access to archive documentation over you on this one.
Surely a CME has the final decision and /or influence to his staff as to what designs are being put forward to the Board. It is well known GN was next inline for conversion to a A3. There was however nothing to stop Thompson saying use the next Loco up for conversion instead of GN either. Musgrave would have informed Thompson of what he had decided. Such rebuilding or in this case scrapping of the P2's and a A3. Have huge financial commitments and approval by the Company and their shareholders, they would have the final say .
No, the C.M.E. never had that authority. No, Great Northern was never in the frame to be modified to A3 standard. Musgrave did not have to inform Thompson or the drawing office of his decision at all - they are different functions within the business and the details of the individual locomotives involved are largely irrelevant to the financial and engineering departments.
No, I dont think I will be buying the book. It is all becoming somewhat ancient history, heading towards 80 plus years ago, and decisions by whoever they were or not they all are now part of history as well . Nothing written in one book now ,will change many entrenched attitudes to Thompson or his designs and decisions, good or bad.
Suit yourself, Mick but very disappointing.
60027Merlin wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:23 pm With reference to the A2/2s working in Scotland out of Haymarket, Dundee Tay Bridge and Aberdeen Ferryhill Sheds. Sooner, rather then later, they were found to be unreliable on a regular basis, resulting in loco availability problems. They could not cope with the allotted passenger turns especially being prone to slip and eventually Peppercorn A2s were drafted in to take over their work.

It was not a case of being banished from Scotland, they were simply not up to the job required on this section of the ECML.
That I am afraid is not true and I have evidence to show this quite substantially within the body of the book.


Sorry so everybody who has written anything about Thompson and A2/2 are all wrong !!!!
60027Merlin
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by 60027Merlin »

60027Merlin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:23 pm
With reference to the A2/2s working in Scotland out of Haymarket, Dundee Tay Bridge and Aberdeen Ferryhill Sheds. Sooner, rather then later, they were found to be unreliable on a regular basis, resulting in loco availability problems. They could not cope with the allotted passenger turns especially being prone to slip and eventually Peppercorn A2s were drafted in to take over their work.

[It was not a case of being banished from Scotland, they were simply not up to the job required on this section of the ECML.
That I am afraid is not true and I have evidence to show this quite substantially within the body of the book.



We will have to disagree on this as I prefer to accept the word from men who drove and fired them from Haymarket when in conversation with them in the 50s/60s/70s.

When a couple of them gave a talk at a Scottish Railway Preservation Society winter monthly meeting many decades ago they were asked at the question time about the A2/2s performance to which they replied that” they would slip in the Sahara.”
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

60027Merlin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:52 pm 60027Merlin wrote: ↑Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:23 pm
With reference to the A2/2s working in Scotland out of Haymarket, Dundee Tay Bridge and Aberdeen Ferryhill Sheds. Sooner, rather then later, they were found to be unreliable on a regular basis, resulting in loco availability problems. They could not cope with the allotted passenger turns especially being prone to slip and eventually Peppercorn A2s were drafted in to take over their work.

[It was not a case of being banished from Scotland, they were simply not up to the job required on this section of the ECML.
That I am afraid is not true and I have evidence to show this quite substantially within the body of the book.



We will have to disagree on this as I prefer to accept the word from men who drove and fired them from Haymarket when in conversation with them in the 50s/60s/70s.

When a couple of them gave a talk at a Scottish Railway Preservation Society winter monthly meeting many decades ago they were asked at the question time about the A2/2s performance to which they replied that” they would slip in the Sahara.”
I have also spoken to several and the general consensus is far more varied than that you're describing. A Thompson A2/2 has a higher rate of adhesion than any of the Bulleid Pacifics, for instance, and all Pacifics slip generally, with not much in it from the point of view of the statistics we have for all of the L.N.E.R. Pacifics.

It's my considered opinion that much of what has been written on the Thompson Pacifics overplays their weaknesses significantly and underplays their actual performances.

It is significant that the reports given to the L.N.E.R. board by Peppercorn on the A2/2 show an incredibly favourable response to the new Pacific type. It is also significant - in light of the fact that I have the availability and mileages statistics throughout the war years - that the comparison between P2 and A2/2 is stark in favour of the latter (which doubled the annual mileages and availability of the former).

We should always draw on primary evidence when looking at history and that is what I have done, happily.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 1:41 pm
Sorry so everybody who has written anything about Thompson and A2/2 are all wrong !!!!
Yes, pretty much as it happens.

If you're interested Mick I can offer you a copy of the book for a preview (on the understanding it is not to be shared and that it is currently being edited).
mick b
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by mick b »

Thanks for the offer , sorry not for me.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 4:05 pm Thanks for the offer , sorry not for me.
I just find this bizarre Mick. I have the evidence, I am happy to share with you a preview, and still you'd prefer to stick to the tired viewpoints that at their heart have no factual basis.

I'm working from collated L.N.E.R. statistics, reports, board minutes, and first hand evidence and still that's not enough to make you reconsider your viewpoint?

Nobody can accuse me I hope of not doing my best to to showcase the evidence.
mick b
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by mick b »

I have axe to grind re Thompson either way, I make models, thats what I enjoy.
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kimballthurlow
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by kimballthurlow »

S.A.C. Martin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:42 pm ... you a copy of the book for a preview .. it is currently being edited).
Hello,
I am very interested in this book, and would like to buy it.
If the book is not at publication stage, is it possible to have my name on an interest list please?

Kimball Thurlow
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:54 pm I have axe to grind re Thompson either way, I make models, thats what I enjoy.
Yet you must do, because you would prefer to repeat things proven untrue than learn. So no axe to grind but happy to spread misinformation.

The Edward Thompson story represents an extraordinary and persistent attack on a man's reputation beyond all that would be deemed reasonable. Perhaps one of the earliest examples of "cancel culture" in railway history (!) - if we have the story wrong, surely with evidence it is right to correct it?
kimballthurlow wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:50 am
S.A.C. Martin wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:42 pm ... you a copy of the book for a preview .. it is currently being edited).
Hello,
I am very interested in this book, and would like to buy it.
If the book is not at publication stage, is it possible to have my name on an interest list please?

Kimball Thurlow
Hi Kimball, when I have publication details I will post them on here. No problem at all. Best wishes
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richard
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by richard »

Civility please!

And using phrases like "cancel culture" is just silly.
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

richard wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:07 pm Civility please!

And using phrases like "cancel culture" is just silly.
I believe I was being perfectly civil Richard.

You think it is silly - from my POV I have written an over 400 page book over an eight year period and so much of what has been written previously is easily evidenced to be wrong. With respect, I'll agree to disagree with your view.
mick b
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Posts: 3727
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by mick b »

Bizarre and quite sad behaviour, I could say something far stronger, but I wont bother.

Thank you Richard for the earlier response.
S.A.C. Martin

Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

mick b wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:49 pm Bizarre and quite sad behaviour, I could say something far stronger, but I wont bother.
If you have something stronger to say Mick, say it. But at least be factual when you say it.
Dave S
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Dave S »

Not having an opinion either way on Thompson I'll be interested in reading it if it's evidence based.

Any idea on a possible publication date ?
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