Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

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Blink Bonny
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Blink Bonny »

Ay up!

As regards the L1 - a handsome engine and, when an apple green one was waved under my nose on our Club Stand a couple of years ago, I had to have it! A bit of haggling and I now possess BRM's review sample and our club was £50 richer. A good outcome all round! I'm a sucker for apple green. Or LMS red, as one of the staff at our local model shop was well aware of BEFORE he waved 13000 under my sneck! Ho hum... :mrgreen:

However, the L1s had one major design flaw. Their frames were much too flimsy with a result that they knocked themselves to bits, not helped admittedly by poor riding. I have read that the rough and tumble of suburban workings "did for them." It never did the N1s, N2s, V1s, V3, LMS 2-6-4Ts or GWR 2-6-2Ts any harm but they were all well designed. The nickname the L1s gained, "Concrete Mixers" should say it all.
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Steve05
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Steve05 »

Hi Guys,

From what I have read Mr. Thompson’s reputation seems to be reasonably based upon his actions. His decisions/actions seemed quietly controversial and to me, and a little off beat. :?

As for his loco aesthetics it seemed to account for nothing on the rebuilds but then very much better on his new locos such as the B1 and L1. This is a curiosity for me but then again some people think the A4 is ugly and the up side down bathtub pretty. :shock:

I’m attracted to the LNER because I admire the spirit of innovation and giving an idea a red hot go! :D IMO this is something that’s lacking with two other groupings. I understand this philosophy took a hiding during the war years.

Nevertheless his rebuilds were not such a success when judged against the merits of previous designs. In contrast Mr. Peppercorn seemed to get his improved evolution of previous designs correct and interestingly there is no controversy about what he did. It certainly seems the engineering staff more appreciated his efforts over that of poor old Ned.

In regard to his new designs the B1 was a loco design built for simplicity under the austerity influence of the times and deserved respect as a decent loco and perhaps better than a Black five for various roles. :wink:

The politics of the times must have been very interesting indeed. They are somewhat difficult to portray as a historically accurate record. And many writers have couched their real emotions and opinions in very respectable terms.

Hey Blackout, from a distance the L1 and V1/3 may look similar but certainly not from close up. My mate purchased this loco and was proud of it when he displayed it at our club. I then brought out my weathered A1/3 and placed it next to his. He studied it for several minutes, turned his head and said, “I’ll swap you mate”. I said, “No”.

Also Blackout I’m with you on questioning the motive to produce this loco. If you read what Hornby said about it on the box, you’d have to wonder why this model was chosen over so many more interesting and more historically successful locos the LNER produced. :shock: Nevertheless, it’s a great RTR model in my opinion.

Given I have been asked whether he was good or bad, I would have to say “bad”. Mind you I don’t usually abide to simplistic absolutes but here’s my dugout.

Regards

Steve
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by 60800 »

I'm glad you share my opinion, and I don't recall anyone ever saying anything bad about Peppercorn. Afterall, it's thanks to him that we had the A1.
Steve05 wrote:some people think the A4 is ugly and the up side down bathtub pretty. :shock:
I think we may have a winner with regards to that one :lol: :
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Tim79
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Tim79 »

Blackout: have you decided to stoop so low as to be so immature as to post such things as that? I respect you're only "trying" to be funny, but some of us here find it offensive and downright silly.

I hate to say it but, kindly grow up. It's not much to ask is it?

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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by 60800 »

:| I'm never gonna get anywhere here am I. I find it quite ridiculous that light hearted jokes seem to be almost banned here. There's got to be a laugh and a bit of banter every now then......

Back onto serious persuits, did Thompson ever propose a major change besides rebuilt locomotives, for example route changes and station reconfigurations etc?
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by jwealleans »

route changes and station reconfigurations etc?
That would have been quite outside his purview. He was only the Chief Mechanical Engineer, not Civil and certainly nothing to do with Traffic.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

blackout60800 wrote::| I'm never gonna get anywhere here am I. I find it quite ridiculous that light hearted jokes seem to be almost banned here. There's got to be a laugh and a bit of banter every now then......
Only when it's funny. That was not funny.
Back onto serious persuits, did Thompson ever propose a major change besides rebuilt locomotives, for example route changes and station reconfigurations etc?
Please go read Peter Grafton's book on Edward Thompson. Particularly if you want to be taken seriously.
Also Blackout I’m with you on questioning the motive to produce this loco. If you read what Hornby said about it on the box, you’d have to wonder why this model was chosen over so many more interesting and more historically successful locos the LNER produced. :shock: Nevertheless, it’s a great RTR model in my opinion.
It shares, as far as I can see, several component toolings with the B1. Which, when you think about it, makes some sense given the genesis of the two classes. For instance, the chimney tooling is on the new B1, as are the electric lighting components and the cylinder drain cocks. There may be more besides but I haven't a B1 to compare directly against my L1s.

Plus, if they had already known they were producing suburban stock - no reason to suggest otherwise - the L1 is the perfect choice for those coaches and fills that particular gap in Hornby's range RE ex-LNER for large passenger tank engine. Bit like producing the Stanier 2-6-4T and the Fowler tanks.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Tom F »

blackout60800 wrote::| I'm never gonna get anywhere here am I. I find it quite ridiculous that light hearted jokes seem to be almost banned here. There's got to be a laugh and a bit of banter every now then......
I'm afraid I found it rather childish too, I can understand why others have not found it funny frankly, including myself.

As Simon says, the Peter Grafton book is a fantastic book, completely unbiased, and another book worth reading would be the East Coast Pacifics at work by former Top Shed Shed Master, Peter Townend.

Too much 'rubbishing' of Thompson goes on, it's like it's the craze to do because others do. Granted he may not have been the easiest of people to get on with...but that shouldn't influence his locomotives, the fact is all Thompson Pacifics were better steamers than most of the single chimney pacifics (A3s in particular) due to the Kylchap blast pipe, something Gresley stated should be used on all future pacifics. It's also on record the A1/1 Great Northern steamed better than a single chimney A4.

I can totally understand people not liking the the look of the pacifics, they did look somewhat...different, but that's what I personally like about them.

And lets not forget the somewhat well received rebuilds/new designs, e.g the B1, K1, O1, O4/8!
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Blink Bonny
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Blink Bonny »

Ay up!

S'a funny thing, aesthetics. Take the side stripes off a streamlined Duchess and you have, indeed, an upside down bathtub. Put them on, and with a matching rake of stock (why didn't I have my camera when I ran the Coronation Scot at the club last week?) and you have a very powerful image. Not beautiful by any means. But it does have a "wow" factor.

The A4s also have that wow factor but look good in any liv. Check out pp128-129 of Brian Haresnape's Gresley Locomotives to see two piccies of A4s in polished unlined black to see it.

Blackout, humour is a good thing. Personally I smiled but no more. Sadly, there are many in our hobby who lack it. Hmm. Wonder what Mallard would look like on my CS set?

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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by 60800 »

I certainly couldn't picture a streamlined duchess in green.

A little bit of info from 'the other camp', Duchess of Sutherland is to be turned out in Br green and is presently undergoing steaming tests.

I think that in reputational terms, Thompson and Dr Beeching were alike, and they both actually helped at some point to keep the railways going strong.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

Blink Bonny wrote:Blackout, humour is a good thing. Personally I smiled but no more. Sadly, there are many in our hobby who lack it.
That isn't helping, frankly.

I think the comparison to Beeching is somewhat misinformed too.

What could be a proper intellectual debate firing off different and valid points of view is fast turning into yet another of those pointless internet "you don't have a sense of humour debates".

I am beginning to understand Malcolm's departure earlier this year, and must say I'm not terribly happy at the way the forum is going either.

Particularly when you think Richard has worked so very hard to build up this forum and website over many years.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by Tom F »

S.A.C. Martin wrote:
Blink Bonny wrote:Blackout, humour is a good thing. Personally I smiled but no more. Sadly, there are many in our hobby who lack it.
That isn't helping, frankly.

I think the comparison to Beeching is somewhat misinformed too.

What could be a proper intellectual debate firing off different and valid points of view is fast turning into yet another of those pointless internet "you don't have a sense of humour debates".

I am beginning to understand Malcolm's departure earlier this year, and must say I'm not terribly happy at the way the forum is going either.

Particularly when you think Richard has worked so very hard to build up this forum and website over many years.

Don't forget that Larry Goddard left a few months back, and I now understand how he felt and why he left.

To get to the point, I totally agree with Simon and also don't like the way the forum is going. Frankly I think I'll be heading the same way soon.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by 60800 »

If the forums are starting to go downhill, it is my fault, as generations often don't mix in terms of ideals and it was my small joke that kicked this off anyway. I'm considering doing a poll thread for if anyone wants to kick me off the forums. I'm sure a few of you would gladly be rid of me, regardless of the fact that I do sometimes bring good news and a bit of friendly banter to the table.

No arguments, no debates, forget about it and just carry on with the thread.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by S.A.C. Martin »

blackout60800 wrote:If the forums are starting to go downhill, it is my fault, as generations often don't mix in terms of ideals and it was my small joke that kicked this off anyway. I'm considering doing a poll thread for if anyone wants to kick me off the forums. I'm sure a few of you would gladly be rid of me, regardless of the fact that I do sometimes bring good news and a bit of friendly banter to the table.
Nobody wants to kick you off the forums, and it certainly isn't just you which is aggravating my nerves on this forum currently.

I think a lot more THINKING before POSTING would go a long way towards making this forum back to the way it was - a friendly place for like minded LNER fans to talk about, and debate, aspects of the LNER.

I do think a lot of the more sensationlist posts, where the facts about certain engines aren't known to the poster, or they haven't bothered to do any research, are those which irritate me the most.
No arguments, no debates, forget about it and just carry on with the thread.
It would be nice to think that the debate, started to assess the actual feelings regarding Thompson, and what facts there are known of him, could be debated in such a manner. But the name of Thompson, rightly or wrongly, makes certain people decide on the basis of conjectural hearsay that he was a villain through and through.

I think everyone should read Peter Grafton's book before being allowed an opinion on Edward Thompson. I read it, and felt frankly thoroughly ashamed of my own views a decade ago.

That the man has no memorial, in the form of a steam engine dedicated to him, or a mere plaque reflecting the vital role he played in the second world war, is heinous and LNER aficionados UK-wide should feel ashamed.
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Re: Edward Thompson. Good or Bad

Post by mick b »

I think Thompson had a lot of problems before he became CME on the sudden death of Gresley, as well as some of his decisions once becoming CME.

Lets not forget In 1941 as a country we were in dire straits, we were losing the war as this prior to the USA entering etc. The LNER were always struggling for cash as well.

He was therfore very restricted as to what he could produce as new designs he was forced to redesign existing Locos as a experiment to see if they could be improved. Some of the rebuilds seem to be just guess work and how did he ever justify the costs involved?

The A1/1 was intended to be a new class of pacifics which eventually became after Peppercorn's re design the superb A1.

His A2/3 class were basically sound again proved by Peppercorns redesign to the A2

The L1 was ill concieved and from what I have read suffered from too small driving wheels.

The B1 was good and a success and the largest class ever built on the LNER.

I have never read much criticisms of his goods engines.Good use being made of existing locos.

There were some one offs such as the D49 and J11 how would such exercises again be justified in wartime? The J11 why was that chosen to experiment on when the LNER already has the J38/39 as standard 0-6-0 Locos.

Personality is where he does himself no favours at all.

Son in law of Sir Vincent Raven CME of the NER who DIDNT get the job at the LNER Gresley did !! = confrontation.

Thompson clearly never got on with Gresley and appears to have resented living in his shadow.
He appeared to have problems as CME with his drawing office staff + others? who slowed drawings/design work to prevent locos being built, which then appeared as redesigns by Peppercorn once he had retired.

Why did he chose Great Northern ?? you can say yes she was knackered and due a heavy repair or he picked her as a deliberate snipe at Gresleys memory for a rebuild when there were other A1's available that could have been rebuilt. The resutant loco for all the hype was better than the A1 it replaced and was only bettered when the A3's got the Kylchap chimney. Again poor design in the frames area didnt help or the fact she was a single rebuild and all the attention good or bad was directed at her alone.

I cannot understand why the P2 was ever rebuilt as the A2/2 ?. The P2 had problems due to where it was being used in Scotland due to severe bends etc. Why were they never deployed on the southern end of the ECML? perhaps Gresley refused to admit the design was flawed/not suitable for the inmtended role?
Again Thompson ignored this instead of redploying the Locos he wasted six potent locomotives in wartime doing a redesign and total rebuild. The A2/2 as said in Peter Townsend book was designed around the P2 coupling rods to make as much use of the P2 parts as possible. This was to allow Thompson to justify the redesign costs etc. The frames were extended at the front etc. As a result they were doomed with constant problems with crackws frames due to flexing.
Having said that think Flying Scotsman the A1/A3 has always had the same problem and still does!! and frames were changed on heavy repairs from a pool.

I have no idea why he built the A2/1 instead of the V2 which they replaced? seems pointless?

The A2/3 from all I have read were excellent machines which became the A2 .

Thompson also abandoned the Gresley type valve gear in favour of easy maintained gear quite understandable during wartime conditions.

As to Thompson good/bad certainly no more than 6/10 . Peppercorn a Gresley junior showed how pacifics should have progressed with the A1 and A2 designs. The only memorila he has that I am aware is Tornado perhaps there is a little bit of thommo in there somewhere as well plus Sir Nigel.

Lastly without Thompsons designs as modellers if would all be a bit a bit boring would it not !!!
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