1960s etc. Ex-GN Main line in London district

[StevieG]

[ Continued from posts up to today (24th August 2010) in the "Welwyn Garden City" thread in 'LNER Discussion' >> 'General LNER Discussion' ]

Micky, I knew Norman for many years. 'Fraid he's not with us for some time now. He began to be 'not quite right', and one day while in the little ticket collector's box in the middle of Potters Bar subway, he didn't recognise me at all : Quite upsetting.
He was later transferred to WGC where there were others who could watch over and see that he was alright, but I think he still ended up having to be retired early. A real shame.

Sure it was Norman at Harringay Micky? I never heard of him passing out for there. He was often at Hornsey 1 (HE) though.
I do know he knew all 'the branch' (Hertford 'loop'), Ashburton Grove, Hornsey 2, Oakleigh Park, Barnet South, Marshmoor, Hatfield 2 and Welwyn North.
Harringay Passenger was of course busier than HE though; a good place to test working speed and stamina, with five busy passenger roads.

I think he did get a possesson stamp made up - always trying to think of little things to help the job.
Like his 'bug' - One of those battery telephone amplifiers with a sucker fitted induction coil you could stick on the side of any ordinary desk or wall phone, and hear the 'phone conversation on the speaker. He found that if you unscrewed the front of a Control phone, and rested this induction pick-up in the right position inside, you could hear all conversations on the Control circuit, and so pick up advance info. on what was going on.
Don't think his possession stamp was adopted exactly : Probably the idea was, but as likely as not, adapted and launched as entirely someone else's invention.

Hyperion, My best wishes to Jack B. when you can next pass them on, and to Dave Cockle. Also saw Jack by chance and had a chat, a few weeks back on an up Manchester Pendoliono.
What time are those fortnightly meets?

Some other good names from station etc. management from those '60s-70s times : Eric Graves, Tony Swift, Graham Berlin, Robin Frost, Mr. Woodward, Tony Mead, Bill Coe (never met),
DIs and similar; Harry Beeby, George Culpin, (certainly never met either, lucky for me), Jan Glasscock (met first time a few months ago: Found it quite amusing that, as an 'assistant Signalman', I'd had to keep out of their way in those days), Ted Bosnell, Dave Sutcliffe, Les Lowbridge. Other officers - Rupert Shervington, Charles Wort (became my boss when I was in KX Div.Control), Bryan Wilson, Ron Allder, Jack Somers.

[Mickey]

Yes it was Norman Greenwood alright who i visited at Harringay (passenger) box i am 100% sure it was him this would have been around early 1973 about 6 or 7 months before they closed Harringay in August of that year. I am not sure how my visits came about at this point in time but i can only assume that he had been at WGC a few days earlier and that he must have mentioned to me that he was going to be there and did i want to visit the box and have a look around?. I presume by what you thought that you didn't think that he signed Harringay that he may not have been passed out there that long before my visits but like i said before it was DIFINITELY Norman Greenwood. I visited him on two consecutive days and yes i remember the BUG that he carried around with him and how it worked with the control phone so he could listen into conversations that were going on between the control and other boxes and how he would listen in and suddenly break into the conversation if he heard something interesting!. Also he used the BUG for 'regulating purposes' as well which was a good idea. I only ever met Norman on about half a dozen occasions when he covered WGC but i always found him sociable and like i said before he didn't mind the Telegraph lad working the lever frame not like some signalmen.

[hq1hitchin]

[ Continued from posts up to today (24th August 2010) in the "Welwyn Garden City" thread in 'LNER Discussion' >> 'General LNER Discussion' ]

Some other good names from station etc. management from those '60s-70s times : Eric Graves, Tony Swift, Graham Berlin, Robin Frost, Mr. Woodward, Tony Mead, Bill Coe (never met),
DIs and similar; Harry Beeby, George Culpin, (certainly never met either, lucky for me), Jan Glasscock (met first time a few months ago: Found it quite amusing that, as an 'assistant Signalman', I'd had to keep out of their way in those days), Ted Bosnell, Dave Sutcliffe, Les Lowbridge. Other officers - Rupert Shervington, Charles Wort (became my boss when I was in KX Div.Control), Bryan Wilson, Ron Allder, Jack Somers.

Out of these worthies, the ones I know to still be alive are Graham Burling, Jan Glasscock, Dave Sutcliffe, Les Lowbridge.

Messrs Mead, Coe, Bosnell, Wilson, Alder and Somers definitely gone to that great yard in the sky.

Bryan Wilson went to to become Area Manager, Merseyside and in retirement wrote many articles for British Railways Illustrated. He was a product of Newport (Essex) Grammar School and thus a Swedie by birth but saw service on the WR and LMR, being DCC in Euston Control when I first met him. He had a phenomenal memory and was sometimes known as the 'Memory Man of BR'

[Mickey]

Was Tony Mead a onetime manager at WGC because on my first day at WGC box in July 1972 the manager a Mr.Mead took me up the box. I did hear that this Mr.Mead later went to Hitchin as a manager.

[StevieG]

Can't be sure about that Micky, but I know there was also Jack Mead, operations manager at Hitchin at some time (believe he was related to Tony; possibly his father), and was still working there in the HST era, so late 1970s, when a signalling failure at Hitchin ended up with an express (1A06?), cautiously being sent Up Fast to Slow at Hitchin South after 2259 points had been 'wound' Reverse with 'management' in attendance, being slightly derailed there on the relatively new swing nose crossing in the UF, which had been overlooked.

[Mickey]

Good one Stevie it always raises a smile when theres a 'cock up' and management are involved. Yes i think he was called Jack Mead now that you mention his name he was at WGC in 1972 and he had one of the offices on the down platform then sometime around 1973 i think he was moved to Hitchin. Jack had a deputy called Mr.Hamer pronounced Ha-mer he stayed at WGC until late '73 or early '74 then he was moved somewhere else?. Ted Bosnell was 'our' D.I. at WGC around 1972/73/74 he was a nice old boy and i believe that he is still alive, also some of the other names that you have mentioned i remember hearing before years ago like Jack Somers.

[Mickey]

Heres a name that you will know Stevie and hq1hitchin and maybe other people as well JIM CHURCHER. I can't remember how i come to first meet Jim but it must have been around early 1971?. Anyway through Jim i visited FINSBURY PARK No4 (once) FINSBURY PARK No5 (twice) FINSBURY PARK No6 (twice) HORNSEY No1 (twice) & WOOD GREEN No1 (twice). After 1971/72 i lost contact with Jim (i did hear that he left signalling and was a supervisor at Finsbury Park on the up side platform) but in 1984/85/86 Jim was on the London Midland region and was involved with the change over weekend at Upper Holloway/Junction Road Junction re-signalling in Nov '85 because i was on with him over the Sunday night/Monday morning he stayed in the box with me at the 'new' Upper Holloway panel s/box. In 1986 i believe Jim left the London Midland region for the Southern region at Victoria but i did hear that his health declined not long after his move to Victoria since then 25yrs on i have never heard anymore about him?.

[hyperion]

Ah ! Had to reboot to get to post and have been trying to resize photos, took a few along the old Brookmans Park linepath yesterday afternoon (the sun shone yesterday, did you see it ?) where I now realise that there Hawkshead Siding was, think I'm getting the techno hang of it and resized one - BUT IT'S STILL TOO DAMN BIG. Will try again, TIME and patience - watch this space - as they say.

Anyway SteveG, I met young Jack yesterday along of some other mainly ex-KingsX layabouts, Roger Lunnun ?, George Payne? (traitor, finished up at CharingX) Dickie Pearce? (traitor, finished up at Liverpool St.). Jack's amazing for his 86+ years. You would have met him on return from a Thursday 'awayday'. There's one of these every week, a liaison between us 'southern softies' and a bunch of ex NorthWestern men living, Crewe, StoneStaffs, Manchester area. Senior is Laurie Smith who was Jack's one-time 'neighbour', he SM at Hornsey including a chunk of Ferme Park I think when Jack was at Wood Green. He became no less that Area Pass.Man. Manchester Piccadilly and it's through this 'partnership' that the Thursday trips came about. A bi-annual 'roster' lists the visits and the 'men from the north' reckon on a London venue at least once a month. I join in when I can.

We southerners meet at the 'Railway Bell' fortnightly, usually Tuesdays, but they shift to a Monday on the last week of a month if needed, to accommodate my RCTS meetings at WGC. That's where I meet Don Cockle very often - and also Les Coe who comes up from Clacton to see his son Alan who is still in KGX travel centre where I worked with him during my last railway 'existence'. The railway Coes are or have been many.

Similarly the Meads, I THINK one was boss in the WGC area when I was in Hatfield BO,used to come and sign the books once a week, chiefy Dick Chandler, a very anti-management man was always looking for ways of thwarting Mr. Mead - oH, but was it Mr. Evans - have to be careful !?

Eric Graves was a first rate relief S.M. again during my Hatfield days - as was old Woodward. Eric Graves had a daughter - cor! - - - Anyway, George Culpin was Charlie 'Teapot's' colleague, nice enough gent but without the 'character' of dear old Charlie somehow.

'Sooty' Sutcliffe and MR. SHERVINGTON both reached high rank and I once met Mr Sutcliffe at some kind of staff social seferal years back now. Dunno about their present status ?

I'll leave it there before I'm done for libel or some such - back to the photos.

[Andy W]

Being an M&EE man, many of the names you mentioned are but fleeting memories now, of days gone by when I used to go out on the patch, away from the depot.

Jack Somers was the DMU man at GN House, retiring shortly before I went there. His desk was still empty, later to be occupied by Frank Pye, back doing riding after his stint at Hitchin finished.

Charlie Wort - well there's a name that still sends shivers down certain peoples backs. Got to be very careful here but they used to send him to the far flung parts of the KX empire but it was like he was on elastic - always ended back at GN House or latterly, KX Station. Was the Asst Ops at GN House in my time there.

Ron Alder I really liked - he had been on the "other side of the desk" (something his former ASLEF colleagues never forgave him for) but if there was somebody who needed sorting out or a bit of encouragement, he was the man to make it happen. He had an office in GN House on the 1st Floor.

Les Lowbridge was the loads inspector when I knew him. I once had to drag him into an arguement when I saw what the HX EMU OHL boys did by loading two loaded cable drums on a long wheel base four wheeler! I've never seen a wagon bend so much and I still have the pictures!

Jack Brown I met quite a few times when I was out doing work on the Hertford Branch, mainly taking M&EE inventories for the ODM. He taught me how to clip a point too and I think it was his daughter that worked at Hornsey ODM depot for a few months before getting a better job at Euston Medical Centre. Glad to see he is still around - nice bloke.

I never knew Graham Burling was ex KX. I last heard of him some years back running some railway recruitment outfit south of the river. I knew of him from his days as AM Watford.

Likewise Jan Glasscock who I first came across when Andrew Haines was restoring FGW to good health. He still does Ops consultancy work and still has a sharp eye for detail.

[hyperion]

Thanks for that Andy, I don't recall clearly any names there although 'Pye' rings a bell; but then I never did get into 'The Kremlin'.

Will remember you to Jack.

cheers.

[Mickey]

Heres a few relief signalmen's names that were around in the early 1970s around the Hatfield-Welwyn-Knebworth-Stevenage-Hitchin areas. Mo Kanter, Stan Crouch, Bill Taylor (a Geordie) Stan colbert, Charlie Cooper, P.J. Cleverley, Fred 'Robbo' Robinson, Norman Greenwood & Roy Revell. There was also a fella who went by the surname of Jones who was an ex-Yorkshire miner and had only been a signalman for a year or two who worked WGC & Hatfield No1 boxes around 1972/73.

[hq1hitchin]

Can't be sure about that Micky, but I know there was also Jack Mead, operations manager at Hitchin at some time (believe he was related to Tony; possibly his father), and was still working there in the HST era, so late 1970s, when a signalling failure at Hitchin ended up with an express (1A06?), cautiously being sent Up Fast to Slow at Hitchin South after 2259 points had been 'wound' Reverse with 'management' in attendance, being slightly derailed there on the relatively new swing nose crossing in the UF, which had been overlooked.

Two separate Meads - Jack and Tony - and I'm pretty sure they weren't related. Jack was indeed AOM at Hitchin at the time of the unfortunate incident to which you refer and I think the train involved may have been 1A01, the 0725 Lincoln - Kings X. If my memory serves me right, there was also another manager involved who subsequently went on to great things in the Rly Safety and Standards Board. Jack Mead suffered the indiginity of having his railway overcoat sold one day by Ted Bosnell in a pub, as he was away attending a call of nature. It wasn't until they went to leave that he noticed his coat had gone. It was then that its fate was revealed...

Tony Mead was a lovely chap and a Relief SM when I first knew him, quite suave and always well turned out - we were in the same link when it came to the allocation of weekend work by the Chief on a Thursday and would often relieve each other back in that happy land that was the early 1970s on the GN.

[hq1hitchin]

Ron Alder I really liked - he had been on the "other side of the desk" (something his former ASLEF colleagues never forgave him for) but if there was somebody who needed sorting out or a bit of encouragement, he was the man to make it happen. He had an office in GN House on the 1st Floor.


Jack Brown I met quite a few times when I was out doing work on the Hertford Branch, mainly taking M&EE inventories for the ODM. He taught me how to clip a point too and I think it was his daughter that worked at Hornsey ODM depot for a few months before getting a better job at Euston Medical Centre. Glad to see he is still around - nice bloke.

Ron Alder was a Woodford man with a 1936 seniority date and I liked him very much, too. Can remember about 1993 meeting him in Sainsbury's in Watford (he was retired by then) and my mate and I trying to explain to him how this forthcoming railway privatisation was going to work. The deeper we got into it, the more his eyes glazed over...(who could blame him?) Last seen at a Hatfield reunion about ten years ago and we travelled back to to Waterloo together - Ron had moved to somewhere in Surrey - and I put him on his train home. RIP

Jack Brown is simply a legend. Used to love listening to him. "Hello, sir...

[hyperion]

And that's the greeting nowadays when he arrives - from behind a wide 'Mr. Punch' smile, to the assembled company, "Hello, sir, - - " almost invariably followed by, "I have to report ---"

[StevieG]

Yes it was Norman Greenwood alright who i visited at Harringay (passenger) box i am 100% sure it was him this would have been around early 1973 about 6 or 7 months before they closed Harringay in August of that year. I am not sure how my visits came about at this point in time but i can only assume that he had been at WGC a few days earlier and that he must have mentioned to me that he was going to be there and did i want to visit the box and have a look around?. I presume by what you thought that you didn't think that he signed Harringay that he may not have been passed out there that long before my visits but like i said before it was DIFINITELY Norman Greenwood. I visited him on two consecutive days and yes i remember the BUG that he carried around with him and how it worked with the control phone so he could listen into conversations that were going on between the control and other boxes and how he would listen in and suddenly break into the conversation if he heard something interesting!. Also he used the BUG for 'regulating purposes' as well which was a good idea. I only ever met Norman on about half a dozen occasions when he covered WGC but i always found him sociable and like i said before he didn't mind the Telegraph lad working the lever frame not like some signalmen.

How odd. I used to visit Norman often since about 1967 at Oak'h.Park, right through towards the end while there were still proper boxes that he signed for, yet I never knew him to sign Harringay 'Passenger'*. AND, the same goes for WGC and him, as far as I knew (except he could, of course, have easily been booked there as acting Lad, but I'm sure that's not what you mean).
The only other box I can think of that I believe I met him at once, but I haven't mentioned before, was Potters Bar when it had it's new '70s temporary panel [before it became an emergencies only panel of course; the area then being taken over for normal operation by remote control from the ('satellite') second panel in Barnet North]. I've even kept in occasional touch with his family since he stopped railway work. Sadly he had to end up being taken special care of in a home, and left us a few years ago.

* Micky, do you remember that the '70s slewing of tracks that was done through Harringay and Hornsey for the remodelling and speed increases, meant that Harringay 'Passenger' box had to be demolished? But, ahead of the full resignalling through the area, the block section potentially being lost could not be done without, so Harringay Up Goods got kitted up with home and distant signals, and all the necessary block instruments and bells, for the Up Fast and Up Slow, and thus 'Harringay Goods' routinely signalled passenger trains for the first time. There had been a nice old signalman at Harringay 'Goods', who I think had only ever been in goods line boxes (or for many years at least); - Ken Hannaford, who'd previously been regular at Ferme Park South Down. Apparently he would not (or just possibly could not be allowed to) entertain the idea of staying at the box with the passenger lines added. Don't know what happened then; he could have retired, I'd think.
The Down lines block section (only on Down Fast and Down Slow 1 by then, one down line having already, in effect, been abolished between Finsbury Park and Wood Green), was retained by giving Finsbury Park 5 intermediate block homes on these two lines, just south of Harringay station (in fact, roughly where Harringay Pass.'s nice 4-doll home signals bracket used to stand). Rather surprisingly even for then, the new signals were on a brand new wide bracket structure, and were mechanical!...With Hornsey 1's distants underneath; and Harr.Pass.'s DF and DS1 distants back at the up 'Northern Heights' lines flyover, near FP5, were retained to be FP5's I.B. distants.
[The new Down Slow 2 (pretty much the old Down Goods most of the way), by then was controlled in the Harringay station and Ferme Park yard's south end area, by Ferme Park North Down, also still employing semaphores, but with the points obviously motor-worked (much too far from the box for mechanical operation) .]