1960s etc. Ex-GN Main line in London district

[Mickey]

What i remember of that time with boxes closing was it was all pretty MISERABLE from about 1970 onwards (possibly a few years before 1970?) but got progressively worse after about '72. By 1974/75 the London end was 'heartbreaking and a total mess' to look at for anyone who liked G.N.R. signalling. It was a 'blessed relief' when HOLLOWAY SOUTH DOWN & HOLLOWAY NORTH DOWN brought the whole sorry curtain down on an end of an era in the summer of 1976.

[StevieG]

" What i remember of that time with boxes closing was it was all pretty MISERABLE from about 1970 onwards (possibly a few years before 1970?) .... " .

You probably recall Micky, (New) Barnet South and Oakleigh Park were the first two to go when new signalling actually replaced old on, or immediately around, 14th June 1970, with the little Westinghouse Individual Function Switch panel taking over from the 75-lever frame in Barnet North.
The only ones I recall closing before that, since about 1966, were Belle Isle Up, Copenhagen Junction, Ferme Park South Down ("temporarily", April 1969; made permanent within months), Ferme Park South Up ('68), Wood Green 3 ?, Hatfield 3 ('69?), Stevenage South ('68), Cadwell ('69).
[ There had been other closures between the 1960 Sectional Appendix's listing and 1966, of course.
Like Wood Green Tunnel, Redhall (or Red Hall), Stapleford Block Hut, Langford Bridge, Biggleswade North, Sandy North, Paxton, Wood Walton, Stukeley, Ashwell, [Hitchin ('Midland') ? ], etc., (and on, to & through Peterborough). ]

[Mickey]

Yes your spot on there Stevie. I remember being on the down platform of New Barnet station around May/June of 1970 one Sunday afternoon (no one else around and a totally empty station) and watching the signal gantry at New Barnet south box (the south box was switched out and the boards were left off) but every now and then New Barnet north box down fast distant signal underneath the south box home signal would 'come off' for a down express. I liked New Barnet south box an interesting box and layout as well. John Saggers use to be at the north box i recall as well as Brian Bar and Brian Long i think his name was?.

[StevieG]

Spot on there Micky, (except it's 'Barr'. He's still fine). 'Fraid I can also remember about 1968 when North still had a Lad apart from nights; - And two regulars doing the job - Laurie King (was later LT signalman at Oakwood I think) and Keith Challon.

I remember John also being on the relief, as far north as Knewborth at least. And he moved into the PSB not too long after its completion, after a spell on the GE ; Think it was thanks to him I once had a brief look at Wormley box one evening.

[Mickey]

First if Brian Barr is on this forum sorry that i spelt your surname wrong Brian. I have heard of Keith Challon's name before and Laurie King's name rings a vague bell?. In the 'London Railways record magazine' there is a feature on NEW BARNET station and it's layouts from the 1890s, 1900s 1950s & 1960s and the signalling. There are several pictures of NEW BARNET station from different views and two good pictures of the crossing from the down slow line right across to the up goods line outside the north box. One view is looking north from the north box and the other view is looking south towards the north box both pictures feature the crossing.

[Mickey]

Stevie, was LANGFORD BRIDGE the same design as ARLESEY & BIGGLESWADE SOUTH boxes?. I have never seen a picture of that box before. Also ARLESEY had a Dutton & Co lever frame did those boxes of that design such as BIGGLESWADE SOUTH & NORTH, SANDY SOUTH & NORTH and so on further on down the line have Dutton & Co lever frames as well?. One final question i have never seen pictures of STUCKLEY & WOOD WALTON boxes before but i was wondering at ABOTTS RIPTON at the time of the 'accident' in the 1870s the box was a simular design to the aforementioned boxes at ARLESEY, BIGGLESWADE SOUTH & NORTH, SANDY SOUTH & NORTH before it ws replaced by a later box was STUCKLEY & WOOD WALTON of a simular design as well to the earlier ABOTTS RIPTON box i suppose it stands to reason that both boxes were?.

[StevieG]

All I can say to most of all that, is 'Don't know'.

• 1. Sandy (the last ; rumoured to have been set up with the frames of the old South and North), did consist of two 40s of a Saxby & Farmer type, with a gap of a few inches between them.
  And pretty sure that by the late 60s, St.Neots, and Huntingdon North No. 1 (& possibly No.2) didn't have Duttons.

• 2. Wood Walton could be a little complicated. There have been at least two boxes, at different times, and I think in different locations, with some period in between with no such box at all. And one of them only signalled one direction.

[Mickey]

Ok Stevie thanks, that was interesting infomation about WOOD WALTON. I have about x2 or 3 sets of S&T drawings of modifications made between ABOTTS RIPTON-CONNINGTON SOUTH-CONNINGTON NORTH sometime around 1959/60 which show an 'auto signal' at WOOD WALTON (i think does without looking at the drawings?). I will have to dig them out and have a closer look and see what these drawings are all about?.

[Mickey]

S&T DIAGRAM (No1). HUNTINGDON-LEYS. (WIDENING OF LINE) DATED 06/05/59 amended in accordance with recommendations of sighting committee at meeting held on 06/11/59. ALTERATIONS TO BE MADE TO THE SIGNALLING AND BLOCK WORKING. ABSOLUTE BLOCK TO BE PROVIDED FOR NEW UP SLOW LINE BETWEEN STUKELEY-HUNTINGDON NORTH No2. BLOCK WORKING-CONNINGTON SOUTH-ABBOTS RIPTON-STUKELEY TO BE CONVERTED TO ABSOLUTE BLOCK. (AT) STUKELEY. Signal 17 UP SLOW HOME RELEASED by "LINE CLEAR" (one movement only). UP SLOW BLOCK controlled by 17 lever UP SLOW HOME 18 arm normal UP SLOW DISTANT. UP MAIN BLOCK controlled by 13 lever UP MAIN HOME and 14 arm normal UP MAIN 'MOTORIZED' DISTANT (existing controls unaltered). ABBOTS RIPTON signal 31 controlled by T.C.s A & B (existing controls adapted). HUNTINGDON NORTH No2. UP MAIN block controlled by T.C. 'B' 56 lever normal UP MAIN HOME and 57 lever UP MAIN DISTANT aspect normal (acceptance effective for one movement only). UP SLOW BLOCK controlled by T.C. 'C' 45 lever normal UP SLOW HOME and DISTANT aspect normal (acceptance effective for one movement only). HUNTINGDON NORTH No1 & No2 UP SLOW DISTANT unworked at this stage.

[Mickey]

I have the following S&T diagrams of the following locations mainly dated late 50s/early 60s. 1. GOODS & MINERAL JUNCTION (extreme far end including the signal gantry outside Copenhagen tunnel mouth hasn't been included in the drawing). 2. HORNSEY No1 complete track diagram. 3. HORNSEY UP GOODS complete track diagram. 4. WOOD GREEN No1 complete track diagram. 5. WOOD GREEN UP BOX No4 (this was the complete box diagram but was given to George Croft in 1991 because he once worked No4). 6. WELWYN GARDEN CITY (alterations made to track & signalling to the entrance to the up sidings from the up back platform No4 and the exit from the up yard 20th mile bridge end. NOT THE COMPLETE WELWYN GARDEN CITY TRACK LAYOUT). 7. WELWYN GARDEN CITY showing the HERTFORD BRANCH ONLY alterations that were made to LINCOLN ELECTRICS siding near ATTIMORE CROSSING. 8. WELWYN NORTH dated 1945 complete track diagram. 9. THREE COUNTIES complete track diagram. 10. x3 diagrams of the area STUKELEY-ABBOTS RIPTON-WOOD WALTON-CONNINGTON SOUTH. 11. CONNINGTON SOUTH complete track diagram. 12. CONNINGTON NORTH complete track diagram. 13. GORBY GLEN complete track diagram. I have had these S&T diagrams since about 1970.

[oliverbury]

Good evening all. Having only stumbled on this forum by accident last Thursday, I promptly signed up and this is my first post.

It is fascinating to see so many names from the past, and, whilst I have learnt more from you folks than I can offer, I may be able to shed a little light on a couple of the individuals mentioned.

Firstly I'm fairly sure Keith Aldridge was in his fifties when he tragically joined the majority. I seem to recall that he had "taken the money" after one of our umpteen re-organizations, rather than retired as such. I remember after a bitterly cold night single line working at Potters Bar trying to communicate with a certain treacle-footed excuse for a signalman (some will know to whom I refer), an SPT call was answered by a cheery "speak to Keefy!", and my job instantly became much easier (and, dare I say, much safer). Doubtless today's po-faced tick-box safety Gestapo would not approve.

Peter Cleverley, who had worked at Knebworth Station on redundancy from the Signalling grades, also died quickly after retirement, missing out on his much anticipated move to North Norfolk.

I worked with Roy Revell on the BedPan modernization and he retired towards the end of same when we were being absorbed into the LMR London Divisional Inspectorate in the early Eighties. He was seen several times around Hitchin in the following years, but not recently that I know of.

The tale about Ted Bosnell selling Jack Mead's coat is certainly in character - I remember him bringing me a couple of beautiful cabbages on an early morning visit to Arlesey box. When I asked if he had grown them himself he said no, but to thank the generosity of the Bedfordshire growers who left sample boxes of their produce at the side of their fields! He also told me that whilst relieving at Everton in his signalling days the local gamekeeper had told him he was away on a week's holiday, and asked to to keep an eye open for any suspicious activity.........!

Lastly, the swing-nose crossing incident at Hitchin involved 1A00 05.55 Cleethorpes/Kings Cross. 2259 points had been reversed for a L/E move Up Fast to Stockyard, and the route would not destroy. Both ends were wound normal, but the swing-nose crossing (not long since installed) was overlooked. As a result the right hand wheels wanted to go Up Fast and the left hand Up Slow. Neither succeeded, leaving an EE Type 4 and two Mk 2As on the rocks. To his credit JM immediately took the rap. How do I know this? 'twas I that authorized the train to pass 696 signal (then plated HT) at danger!

Several of the people mentioned in this topic regularly attend George Case's twice-yearly Kings Cross re-unions at the Hatfield CIU. The next is on Thursday 18th November from 12.00 - maybe I'll see some of you there.

[StevieG]

" What i remember of that time with boxes closing was it was all pretty MISERABLE from about 1970 onwards (possibly a few years before 1970?) .... " .

You probably recall Micky, (New) Barnet South and Oakleigh Park were the first two to go when new signalling actually replaced old on, or immediately around, 14th June 1970, with the little Westinghouse Individual Function Switch panel taking over from the 75-lever frame in Barnet North.
The only ones I recall closing before that, since about 1966, were Belle Isle Up, Copenhagen Junction, Ferme Park South Down ("temporarily", April 1969; made permanent within months), Ferme Park South Up ('68), Wood Green 3 ?, Hatfield 3 ('69?), Stevenage South ('68), Cadwell ('69).
[ There had been other closures between the 1960 Sectional Appendix's listing and 1966, of course.
Like Wood Green Tunnel, Redhall (or Red Hall), Stapleford Block Hut, Langford Bridge, Biggleswade North, Sandy North, Paxton, Wood Walton, Stukeley, Ashwell, [Hitchin ('Midland') ? ], etc., (and on, to & through Peterborough). ]

Just thought I could add to the above, a box or three that went not too many years before the 1960 Sect. Appdx. :
Ferme Park South Up, Greenwood, and Potters Bar (mechanical).

[Mickey]

Very nice one Stevie FERME PARK SOUTH UP what a great little s/box that box was, that was the sort of box that could have been bought off B.R. on closure and had it relocated to someones back garden!. I can just about remember seeing FERME PARK SOUTH UP around 1967 (it may well have been redundent by then i think?) i seem to remember seeing the box with the door wide open standing on the up side of the line near where the FERME PARK/HARRINGAY FLYOVER goes over the main lines. I seem to remember also that the box was painted in a 'grey'ish colour' (i think?) but it was a nice compact little s/box with at a pure guess a 20 lever frame?. No sooner had i first saw it when the next time i went passed on a train it was gone!. I would like to see a picture of that box if any exist?.
GREENWOOD every self-respecting L.N.E.R. enthusiast knows GREENWOOD either they remember it in the 'flesh' or like me in the very many photos that the box appears in.
As for POTTERS BAR (old mechanical box) thats a 'rare beast' that one is?. I have seen a couple of photos of the box but thats about it!. I think the box was situated at the end of the down platform when it was just two roads through the station before the widening to four roads through POTTERS BAR.

[StevieG]

....Micky, (et al) : ....

Sorry ; I'll try again : .... Ferme Park NORTH Up !

Potters Bar old box : Yep; correct location Micky (but that's one I've only seen in photos).

Double-track only between Greenwood and the N. end of Potters Bar station : That must have been a heck of a job regulating the slow (& some long) Down freights from Greenwood, up the 1 in 200 gradient all that way between the fast trains.

[Mickey]

FERME PARK NORTH UP thats before my time Stevie but of course i know that there was a box at FERME PARK NORTH UP. I have only seen one photograph with FERME PARK NORTH UP in it but even then the box is in the far distance and it's an end on view as well!. I don't really know anything about NORTH UP but i think there is the diagram 'knocking around' somewhere maybe on John Hinson's site?. While we are in the area i nearly forgot i did happen to get into FERME PARK NORTH DOWN for a minute or two but it was just a quick 'in & out' and back down the stairs about a year before it closed.
Yes it would have been a job regulating all that traffic over thoughs two roads between GREENWOOD and POTTERS BAR over the down line especially i suppose when GANWICK box was there that would have broken up the block section, wasn't there a small block hut at HADLEY WOOD also a s/box at MIMMS at the north end of Potters Bar tunnel at onetime?.
* * * I have deleted that question about what do two S&T diagrams mean of forthcoming P.WAY work to be carried out at CONNINGTON SOUTH & CONNINGTON NORTH s/boxes in 1959 when the two S&T diagrams are headed TRACK CIRCUIT IN LIEU OF F.P.L. BAR. The points concerned at CONNINGTON SOUTH are from the down main line to down goods line and the points concerned at CONNINGTON NORTH are from the down goods line to down main line. Without anyone seeing the two S&T diagrams it's not fair to expect anyone to make a comment.