1960s etc. Ex-GN Main line in London district

[StevieG]

Heres a name that you will know Stevie and hq1hitchin and maybe other people as well JIM CHURCHER. I can't remember how i come to first meet Jim but it must have been around early 1971?. Anyway through Jim i visited FINSBURY PARK No4 (once) FINSBURY PARK No5 (twice) FINSBURY PARK No6 (twice) HORNSEY No1 (twice) & WOOD GREEN No1 (twice). After 1971/72 i lost contact with Jim (i did hear that he left signalling and was a supervisor at Finsbury Park on the up side platform) but in 1984/85/86 Jim was on the London Midland region and was involved with the change over weekend at Upper Holloway/Junction Road Junction re-signalling in Nov '85 because i was on with him over the Sunday night/Monday morning he stayed in the box with me at the 'new' Upper Holloway panel s/box. In 1986 i believe Jim left the London Midland region for the Southern region at Victoria but i did hear that his health declined not long after his move to Victoria since then 25yrs on i have never heard anymore about him?.

Jim, also knew 'Harringay Goods', where I met him. Can't add anything about his post-signalling posts or health that you mention. But I did have cause to speak to him by 'phone a couple of times during about 2000-2005, when he was some sort of operations interface manager/advisor on the Ebbsfleet-St.Pancras CTRL (/"HS1") line project, as was Dave Sutcliffe in some way, I believe.

[Mickey]

Thats strange about Norman Greenwood Stevie although he did work WGC but i can only remember Norman working WGC on one occasion possibly twice that was before they took the lever frame out of WGC so that would have been pre-September '73 (although he could have worked a few shifts when i wasn't on duty?). The regular's Harry Fitzgerald, Cecil White & Alan Palmer didn't seem to take much leave only the usual two weeks summer leave a year and that was about it!. As for the Harringay curve being 'slewed over' yes i remember it happening and i also remember hearing about some problems that people were experiencing at Harringay thinking that they were standing in the down fast line when they were infact standing in the up fast line!. Yes i remember the the signalling at Harringay after Harringay (passenger) had closed because i made a hand drawn track diagram (that i still have) of the WHOLE ROUTE FROM HOLLOWAY SOUTH DOWN & SOUTH UP TO HORNSEY No1 ALL LINES dated Mar/April '74 and it shows the I.B.SIGNALS at Harringay worked by FINSBURY PARK No5 (they were a fair old pull?) and the up fast & slow lines worked by HARRINGAY UP GOODS. I must admit that i didn't like HARRINGAY UP GOODS WORKING THE UP FAST & SLOW LINES as well it didn't seem right somehow?.

[Mickey]

Heres a name from the past Keith Aldridge a onetime relief signalman around the Hatfield to Hitchin areas in the 1960s & 70s. I remember seeing Keith working Hatfield No3 around the summer of 1969. I didn't know Keith personally but i knew of him, i happen to speak to him one day when he was a PSB supervisor at Kings Cross in 1988 and then the next thing i heard he'd died of a heart attack all of a sudden!. I believe Keith may have only have been in his 40s at the time of his death?.

[hq1hitchin]

Heres a name from the past Keith Aldridge a onetime relief signalman around the Hatfield to Hitchin areas in the 1960s & 70s. I remember seeing Keith working Hatfield No3 around the summer of 1969. I didn't know Keith personally but i knew of him, i happen to speak to him one day when he was a PSB supervisor at Kings Cross in 1988 and then the next thing i heard he'd died of a heart attack all of a sudden!. I believe Keith may have only have been in his 40s at the time of his death?.

I remember Keith - a gentle sort of bloke, mostly relieved in the Hitchin area in the dealings I had with him. Very sad for him to die so young. Another relief man was Martin Powell, lived in Stevenage and had a shoe shop, I believe. Also badly bitten with the gambling bug and a regular at Caesar's Palace in Dunstable. He was good for a laugh though, like Keith.

[Mickey]

I am not sure that i every heard of Martin Powell hq1hitchin he must have been alittle bit before my time (the early '70s) or he was around the Hitchin area and down the line to Sandy and also down the Cambridge branch?. I know you would have known Dave Wotton he went to Kings Cross PSB and only finished up several years ago. Didn't Dave's father Jack Wotton use to be at Welwyn north during the 1940s and 50s?.

[Mickey]

I missed this fella out he was a relief signalman around the Hitchin area around 1970 (abit before and abit after) i never met him but he went under the magnificent name of VAUGHAN BLOOM a name to remember!. Good to hear that Jim Churcher is still around Stevie, good old Jim i wouldn't mind running into him again (he owes me a tenner ONLY JOKING ) to say hello.

[StevieG]

Knew Keith okay, Micky. He afforded me my few visits to Hatfield 3 ('JV'), (during one of which, one evening, HMQ's train was dealt with), and my once-only to Hitchin Yard, once he'd moved north to that area. And yes he was in King's Cross PSB, but signalman, at least until March '89 (I was one of the supervisors '79 -'89). I think he'd taken early retirement not long before sadly being suddenly taken. Great bloke. Dave Wootton was actually in the PSB before, during and after my time there, as were Alan Palmer and Dave Burnett, and latterly Dave Tilbury.
I've an idea Jack Wootton was at Hitchin South before retiring, but never met him.
Yep, Vaughan Bloom. Very nice chap. Relieved mainly a bit further north I think (did he come south as far as Welwyn North?). Think I remember calling him at Biggleswade (former South), and visited him once at Royston box while it was in panel form. He became a roving ticket inspector, for quite a few years after the boxes had gone I reckon.

Ever meet or know of, small reliefman Charlie Smith, or Les Avis, one of the young chaps who arrived 'late in the day' of GN London mechanical boxes - I think one of the several recruited from 'up north' when the '70s shortage of signalmen for all the boxes in and coming out of London was getting quite accute? Certainly recall CS, maybe both of them, doing a turn at Woolmer Green.

[Mickey]

Yes HATFIELD No3 (JV .--- ---.) one of my favourite G.N. boxes up the London end as well as FINSBURY PARK No2, No4, No5, No6 and HORNSEY UP GOODS, yes i remember seeing Keith Aldridge working No3 around the summer of 1969 standing at the open window one Sunday afternoon. I remember i spoke to Keith around 1988/89 when i was at Upper Holloway (a part of the North London lines) one day when i was there i must have rung the signalman's phone at Kings Cross was the no.54002 or 45002?. YOU LUCKY SO AND SO Stevie getting into HITCHIN YARD that was always one box i wanted to 'bunk' into (as well as Hatfield No3) but never did mores the pity!. I liked the working between HITCHIN SOUTH-HITCHIN YARD-CAMBRIDGE JUNCTION (short block sections with 'indicator working' with the distant signals at HITCHIN YARD i guess?). When i was at WGC the other 'Tele lad' was an old signalman called Ron Hawkins on the other shift who had been 'Green carded'. Ron had once been at HITCHIN YARD before going to WGC he was a nice old boy but young at heart he must have been in his late 50s or early 60s even then in the early 1970s. You mentioned Royston s/box i remember one Sunday afternoon i happen to get off the train there and seeing that the box was 'switched out' (the boards were left off) and there was no one around i walked off the up platform and walked up the stairs to the box and had a look in!. Blimey just imagine doing something like that now days!. Great days pity that it all had to come to an end to soon...

[StevieG]

I think the King's Cross 'phone numbers were changing, i/c/w with introduction of ONLE (One Number London Exchange) just around the time I moved to Liv.St, changing from 021-4xxx to 00-54xxx. I think Panel 1's might've become 00-54502?
Hitchin Yard was 'tricky', being nearly opposite the Area Manager's offices on the up platform. Pretty sure it was a Saturday afternoon I got in there for a while with Keith. But I never saw in the South ; nor Cambridge Junction until it had officially become Hitchin panel.
... occasions like Royston : ....and if you happened to unexpectedly get gifted a spare standard GN Box key, a few such opportunities could me even more satisfying. That's how I got take my photo of the inside of Ashburton Grove one Sat. afternoon.

[Mickey]

Stevie, when i said that i had a look in ROYSTON box i meant that i had a look in the window of the door i never went in the box. That was a 'very long' block section when ROYSTON was 'switched out' between BALDOCK & SHEPRETH that must have been a good 13-15 minutes travelling time between the two boxes for a non-stopping train?. A train stopping at ROYSTON would have put an extra 2-3 minutes on the time that it would have been in the block section between the two boxes i would have thought?. By the way i made an edit of my previous posting i accidently spelt HATFIELD No3 JV morse code wrong (i was thinking about it last night) yourself and hq1hitchin would have noticed it should have been .--- ---. I think that i was reading on JOHN HINSON'S site awhile ago that HITCHIN YARD the lever frame was originally at the front of the box facing the running lines then at some date they replaced the original frame and put the new frame in the back of the box facing away from the running lines. I suppose it made sense having the frame in the back of the box at HITCHIN YARD i guess it would have gave the signalman a more unrestricted view of the station area being that high up?. While i am around this part of the G.N. i may as well mention the time i visited KNEBWORTH box with Mo Kanter as the signalman one afternoon the box still had 'gas lighting' like the station still had (until 1975 i think?) my visit would have been around the summer of 1972 after i had started at WGC. I remember Mo telling me that the KNEBWORTH lever frame was a 'Rocker frame' he was the same signalman who let me visit him at STEVENAGE NORTH box around the same time when he was there one afternoon, i believe old Mo Kanter has long since passed away. "Great days never to be forgotten but they ended all to soon..."

[StevieG]

"Stevie, when i said that i had a look in ROYSTON box i meant that i had a look in the window of the door i never went in the box. " ....

I realised that. That's why I said a key could make opportunities (looking through the window/door) more satisfying.

.... " That was a 'very long' block section when ROYSTON was 'switched out' between BALDOCK & SHEPRETH that must have been a good 13-15 minutes travelling time between the two boxes for a non-stopping train?. A train stopping at ROYSTON would have put an extra 2-3 minutes on the time that it would have been in the block section between the two boxes i would have thought? " ....

And remember there were also possible stops at Ashwell and Meldreth in that section. I think Baldock was also due to switch out at times, but I've a feeling Letchworth was "Continuously".

.... " I think that i was reading on JOHN HINSON'S site awhile ago that HITCHIN YARD the lever frame was originally at the front of the box facing the running lines then at some date they replaced the original frame and put the new frame in the back of the box facing away from the running lines. " ....

Correct.

.... " I suppose it made sense having the frame in the back of the box at HITCHIN YARD i guess it would have gave the signalman a more unrestricted view of the station area being that high up?. " ....

Yes, but that probably wouldn't alone be enough justification for the change. Can't recall detail now, but perhaps the old frame needed replacing anyway : And of course it was usually easiest to install and ready a new frame for service on the opposite side of the box, while the old one is still in use ; And the changeover is then fairly quick compared to dismantling an old frame before installing a new one.

.... "i believe old Mo Kanter has long since passed away."

Only in the last few weeks apparently, as someone retired, who should be in the know, told me only last week.

[ JV : Actually .--- ...-]

[Mickey]

Blimey Stevie has Mo Kanter only just passed away!. I lost contact with all those blokes more or less when i left WGC back in March 1974. Mo must have been in his 80s or 90s even?. Happy memories of visiting Mo at KNEBWORTH and STEVENAGE NORTH box around the summer of 1972 (a great summer it was sunny and warm all that summer through). I liked your remarks about the 'box key' that made me i don't think i would have had the b***s to let myself into a box that was 'switched out' but having said that i did turn up at CEMETERY one dark night when the box was 'switched out' but hadn't closed for good then but i never went inside but the least said about that on this forum the better. The things that i done back then (and other people?) it's a wonder i didn't end up in trouble with the BT police?. The same went for the NORTH LONDON LINE i managed to get into several of there boxes (when i was invited in by the signalman i mite add) BROAD STREET No2 (May 1970) & DALSTON JUNCTION (July 1970) as well as KENSINGTON SOUTH MAIN (August 1970) on the WEST LONDON LINE. Nowadays if you dare walk on the platform some official is asking you questions?. "Happy days we won't see those days again..."

[AndyRush]

* Micky, do you remember that the '70s slewing of tracks that was done through Harringay and Hornsey for the remodelling and speed increases, meant that Harringay 'Passenger' box had to be demolished? But, ahead of the full resignalling through the area, the block section potentially being lost could not be done without, so Harringay Up Goods got kitted up with home and distant signals, and all the necessary block instruments and bells, for the Up Fast and Up Slow, and thus 'Harringay Goods' routinely signalled passenger trains for the first time. There had been a nice old signalman at Harringay 'Goods', who I think had only ever been in goods line boxes (or for many years at least); - Ken Hannaford, who'd previously been regular at Ferme Park South Down. Apparently he would not (or just possibly could not be allowed to) entertain the idea of staying at the box with the passenger lines added. Don't know what happened then; he could have retired, I'd think.
The Down lines block section (only on Down Fast and Down Slow 1 by then, one down line having already, in effect, been abolished between Finsbury Park and Wood Green), was retained by giving Finsbury Park 5 intermediate block homes on these two lines, just south of Harringay station (in fact, roughly where Harringay Pass.'s nice 4-doll home signals bracket used to stand). Rather surprisingly even for then, the new signals were on a brand new wide bracket structure, and were mechanical!...With Hornsey 1's distants underneath; and Harr.Pass.'s DF and DS1 distants back at the up 'Northern Heights' lines flyover, near FP5, were retained to be FP5's I.B. distants.
[The new Down Slow 2 (pretty much the old Down Goods most of the way), by then was controlled in the Harringay station and Ferme Park yard's south end area, by Ferme Park North Down, also still employing semaphores, but with the points obviously motor-worked (much too far from the box for mechanical operation) .][/quote]

It sounds like this could only have lasted just over a year if the dates I have are correct:
Harringay West Station box closed 06.08.1973
Harringay Up Goods box downgraded to a shunting frame 09.12.1974 and closed altogether some time in 1976

Does that sound right?

Andy

[Mickey]

Hello Andy, yes i remember the 'slewing of the roads' through Harringay and Hornsey stations Stevie and myself touched on this last week. I drew a track layout of ALL the lines from HOLLOWAY SOUTH DOWN & SOUTH UP through HOLLOWAY NORTH DOWN-FINSBURY PARK-HARRINGAY to HORNSEY No1 which also includes ASHBURTON GROVE-FINSBURY PARK No2 as well as HARRINGAY UP GOODS & FERME PARK NORTH DOWN all dated March/April 1974 (which i still have). It obviously shows the roads 'slewed' at HARRINGAY also the 'temporary' I.B. signals worked by FINSBURY PARK No5 on the down fast & slow No1 lines (the down slow No2 line was abolished?). Yes as you and Stevie said HARRINGAY UP GOODS took control of the up fast & up slow lines and they also closed HORNSEY No2 sometime around the summer of 1973 as well and that meant signalling alterations at WOOD GREEN UP BOX No4 working with HARRINGAY UP GOODS on the up fast & slow lines. Yes HARRINGAY (passenger) closed in August 1973 and Stevie did mentioned about Ken Hannaford (i didn't know Ken) 'jacking it in' at HARRINGAY UP GOODS because he didn't like the changes i must say "i admire the bloke" i didn't like what they done to HARRINGAY UP GOODS myself. Look what happened to HORNSEY UP GOODS as well that place was all but 'destroyed' at one point the only way in or out of Hornsey carriage sidings at the south end was by a 'temporary' engine line between HORNSEY UP GOODS & HARRINGAY UP GOODS running around the back of Ferme Park up sidings (the future site of the EMU depot) this was around 1975 i seem to remember?. The connection with WOOD GREEN UP BOX No4 on the up goods line remained but i can't remember if the up carriage line was still in use Stevie or hq1hitchin would probably know for difinite about the situation regarding the working between WOOD GREEN UP BOX No4 & HORNSEY UP GOODS from the summer of 1973 until 1975/76.

[StevieG]

Andy, Could you have Hornsey Up Goods in mind?
That certainly did become a shunting frame (LM Region-speak) with 'Ground Frame' type-released connections onto the Up Goods, plus the separate Engine Line round to Harringay as Micky mentions, until abolished when Hornsey Carriage Sidings were remodelled resulting in the introduction of the now currently o.o.u., boarded up, and apparently mothballed Hornsey Control Cabin with its individual function switch panel, which I think could well have been some time in 1976.

Wood Green ('Up Box No.4') temporary power box took full control of the remodelled/resignalled version of all that Harringay Up Goods had controlled, and I'm sure it was at the same time that all of Hornsey and Harringay running lines was taken on (possibly up lines only; I think there was a week or three when Wood Green was thus working TC Block with Fins.Park No.6, while still working Absolute Block with Hornsey No.1 on the down lines).
So I think Harringay UG must've been completely abolished from being of block post status at that time.