WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER

[756Gil]

John,
Thanks for that, one favour deserves another.
Here is something that will hopefully help many on this site in the future and covers all the Royal train journeys for a period and is in total 129 pages of detailed information on engines and those Royals travelling to and from a location, released in January 2012.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/~/media/Files/NRM ... 20list.pdf

I have scoured all the pages but can't see any reference to any drivers who were obviously taken for "granted" until things went wrong !!!
Gil

[richard]

All the Cambridge connections do strongly suggest trains to Sandringham rather than Balmoral.
Coming from Yorkshire, "Sandringham" isn't exactly my definition of "up north"!

I agree a Pacific would not have been used for Sandringham work.
The GER did have a dedicated Claud Hamilton for royal work. From memory the LNER may have replaced this with a B17? These locos were used for other work, but they were kept in particularly clean condition. Eg. the Claud had a polished smoke box ring. Must have been quite fetching in royal blue!

[strang steel]

I think that in BR days the royal engine was a B2 61671 Royal Sovereign but I am not sure how long it served the LNER in that capacity as I don't have the "green book" to hand.

[silverfox]

'Royal Engines'
The LNER allocated two D16 8783 and 8787 for this purpose. i understand they had white cab roofs.
After nationalisation they were replaced by 61671 renamed from Manchester City to Royal Sovereign. however the two D16's were kept on to work the train from Kings Lynn to Wolferton. They were BR numbered 62614/8
When 61671 was withdrawn its name was transferred to 61632 ex Belvoir Castle. however this loco only lasted for a few months longer.
Both of these locos were Class B2
In fact the funeral train of KGVI was hauled from Wolverton to Kings Lynn by 61617 Ford Castle , yet another B2 rebuild. It was then taken to Kings Cross behind 70000 Britannia. The reason KX was used was to keep the ceremonial proceedings normally associated with the depature/arrival from Liverpool Street to a minimum

So despite the (oft misquoted) 'fact' that the Sandringham Class locos (B17) are associated with Royalty. This is very far from the truth. Unless you argue that they were once the same class* The only connection is that KGV granted the LNER to name the first engine Sandringham.No other locos in the class had any connections with Royal residences at all (possibly Hatfield House of QEI fame) I have looked for any workings of Royal trains by B17's to substatiate ths claim, but as yet have not come up with anything.

*Rather as the B2 is a B1 with 6'8'' wheels same much as the A1 (Peppercorn) is an A2 with bigger wheels, or a K3 with the K5 ( tenuous i know but you get the drift)

[strang steel]

John,
Thanks for that, one favour deserves another.
Here is something that will hopefully help many on this site in the future and covers all the Royal train journeys for a period and is in total 129 pages of detailed information on engines and those Royals travelling to and from a location, released in January 2012.

http://www.nrm.org.uk/~/media/Files/NRM ... 20list.pdf

I have scoured all the pages but can't see any reference to any drivers who were obviously taken for "granted" until things went wrong !!!
Gil

Thanks for that link Gil.

That is a very useful document, especially in later years when it actually lists the coaching stock used in the royal train, or occasionally added to a service train.

However, as you mention, it does not help with Walter.

I have found him in the 1938 Cambridge Directory, living at 36 Cockburn Street, which is the opposite side of the railway to Sleaford Street, but just as close to it.

This is making me think that he must have been a Cambridge driver, and may well have driven the royal train in his more senior years. I am not quite sure how Flying Scotsman fits into this, but I will keep searching.

Going slightly off at a tangent, there is a nice photo of Cambridge shed here http://www.geolocation.ws/v/W/File%3ACa ... c.jpg/-/en

Which is interesting in other reasons because it shows an O1 2-8-0 that was visiting at that time.

[richard]

silverfox: I wasn't quoting it as fact, more speculation as my books weren't handy. I knew the Clauds were used. Hence it would have made sense if B17s were eventually used. From the information above, that was nearly correct - substitution wasn't until BR days by which time Thompson B2s were used instead.

[756Gil]

On behalf of my search for the family, a Royal Visit to Brandon Station in September 1941 by The King and Queen and the Duke of Gloucester and other dignatories visiting tank crews on the Thetford Battle Area, showed a Class B17 locomotive arriving at the station there.

I am told these were fairly commonly for use of the Royal Train on the former GE section – quite appropriate as they became known as “Sandringhams” after the first engine in the class, as stated earlier in this thread.
As he was probably a Cambridge driver he would have probably been around at the time of this SECRET visit during the war years to Brandon Station.

I am reliably informed by Royal Protection that the Queen accompanied the King totally unofficially on that visit, and something that was frowned on at the time, them all traveling together like that during wartime.
It would be nice to find a photo or record of Walter, but as I seem to have exhausted every angle I can, including the GERS digitised staff records and the BR Eastern Region Magazines as well, not sure now which way to turn to bottom this out for the family.
Thanks for the picture of the Chesterton yards.
Appreciate all your help, and if I trip over anything that I think might help you guys I will post it on the site for you.
Gil

[silverfox]

Richard.
It wasn't directed at anyone inparticular. Just that a lot of enthusiastics have thought it!

[756Gil]

Here's a great shot of the King and Queen arriving at Brandon station in Suffolk 12th September 1941, spot the engine??
HM The Queen was not supposed to be travelling together as stated before but heyho they were inseparable

[James Brodie]

Pacifics on royal train workings.
H.M. the Queen opening Newtown Peterlee. 1957.
Train worked to Picton for overnight stop by A4.
62001 overnight loco 51L.
Pacific forward to Horden the nearest station for Peterlee next morning.A3.Loco
Later fiasco at Dtn when the A4 loco working the empties back to wherever coupled the buckeyes up while the coach buffer pads were still on the buffer shanks ?!?! and sacre bleur !
James Brodie.

I still have the STNs somewhere under about fifty years of paperwork. I got a letter of appreciation and seven and six pence.

[52D]

I spent a fair bit of time lodging at Brandon when doing odd jobs for our gallant allies at the local Air bases. The Great Eastern Hotel was one place I lodged at and you can just see the chimneys of it behind the loco in the picture.

[756Gil]

John,
Thanks for that. Since your last post I have been digging around most of Cambridgeshire, and albeit the family are adamant he did what he said he did, I can find absolutely no record of him at Cambridge/Chesterton sidings or anything railway, unless someone else has since found something.

It must be a definitive negative result, when he doesn't appear on the pay book list either I suppose???
Any ideas?