WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
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WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
I was wondering if anyone on this site would know where I can access the list of drivers of the Flying Scotsman when the Royal Family were taken up north from London in the past.
I am doing some research for the family on a driver called Walter Thwaites, has anyone got a pointer please?
I am doing some research for the family on a driver called Walter Thwaites, has anyone got a pointer please?
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
756Gil,
The list you wish for does not exist. But there are things that you can do which will help with your enquiry.
If it is possible to determine when your driver was born, and if relevant died, also hopefully where they lived and worked (that is which loco shed he worked from), that would allow those minded to help on this site a good deal.
It is very unlikely that the 'Flying Scotsman' was involved in ferrying the royals about, excepting minor members of the family.
There are staff records available, which can be looked through for Mr Thwaites, but as much information as you can provide will help.
Regards,
John
The list you wish for does not exist. But there are things that you can do which will help with your enquiry.
If it is possible to determine when your driver was born, and if relevant died, also hopefully where they lived and worked (that is which loco shed he worked from), that would allow those minded to help on this site a good deal.
It is very unlikely that the 'Flying Scotsman' was involved in ferrying the royals about, excepting minor members of the family.
There are staff records available, which can be looked through for Mr Thwaites, but as much information as you can provide will help.
Regards,
John
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
John,
Thanks for that, I will obtain as much info as I can and come back to you. Appreciate the help on this it means a lot to his family.
Thanks for that, I will obtain as much info as I can and come back to you. Appreciate the help on this it means a lot to his family.
- strang steel
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
I have performed a quick search for Walter Thwaites on the railway employment records, and that gave two results. One working for the LNWR and another for the LBSCR.
However, they tend to be early 20th century records and he may have started work later than that.
However, they tend to be early 20th century records and he may have started work later than that.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
Thanks for that. All I can provide is WALTER JOHN THWAITES bn April 11th 1895 and died 1963.
Does that help at all?
The family are adamant that he drove the Royal family north on a number of occasions in The Flying Scotsman.
Trying to bottom this out and then try and cross reference with any historical photos to corroborate it.
Does that help at all?
The family are adamant that he drove the Royal family north on a number of occasions in The Flying Scotsman.
Trying to bottom this out and then try and cross reference with any historical photos to corroborate it.
- richard
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
Of course there's the age old confusion of the Flying Scotsman train and the locomotive.
They wouldn't have been on the train.
Were Pacifics used on Royal Trains? If so, then the locomotive is a possibility - at least as far as Aberdeen (to Balmoral, the relevant GNSR branch would have required a smaller locomotive).
They wouldn't have been on the train.
Were Pacifics used on Royal Trains? If so, then the locomotive is a possibility - at least as far as Aberdeen (to Balmoral, the relevant GNSR branch would have required a smaller locomotive).
Richard Marsden
LNER Encyclopedia
LNER Encyclopedia
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
No luck with the staff records I have on disc.
Richard you have a point. The most frequent use of the Royal train on the LNER would have been to Sandringham I think? So probably not No. 4472 going there.
John
Richard you have a point. The most frequent use of the Royal train on the LNER would have been to Sandringham I think? So probably not No. 4472 going there.
John
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
Yes, thanks.756Gil wrote:Thanks for that. All I can provide is WALTER JOHN THWAITES bn April 11th 1895 and died 1963.
Does that help at all?
The family are adamant that he drove the Royal family north on a number of occasions in The Flying Scotsman.
Trying to bottom this out and then try and cross reference with any historical photos to corroborate it.
That helps quite a lot. At least it will give a good starting point for the ages at which he might have joined the railways, and if there are more than one of the same name it can help make sure we have the right one.
He was born in Cambridge, which will help as well.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
If it is the same person I have found elsewhere, he died in Cambridgeshire too?
John
John
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
John,
Yes spot on he was a Cambridge lad. Wait to hear of any info on him.
Regards
Gil
Yes spot on he was a Cambridge lad. Wait to hear of any info on him.
Regards
Gil
- strang steel
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
I can't find him at any East Anglian depots in 1929, although he may have moved over to the ECML by then. I can't see any reason why Flying Scotsman should not be in charge of the royal train for part of its journey to Balmoral, or even elsewhere on the region if there was a requirement to travel north.
I know Royal Sovereign was a dedicated loco, but did it appear on all the royal trains on the LNER/BR(E) until its withdrawal?
There did not seem to be much problem with a variety of locos on other regions. For instance, when HM The Queen visited Newbury racecourse in September 1957 and returned to Balmoral, the stock was brought there by 5065 Newport Castle. The train was taken forward to Shrewsbury by 5029 Nunney Castle and on from Shrewsbury by 46247 City Of Liverpool.
I know Royal Sovereign was a dedicated loco, but did it appear on all the royal trains on the LNER/BR(E) until its withdrawal?
There did not seem to be much problem with a variety of locos on other regions. For instance, when HM The Queen visited Newbury racecourse in September 1957 and returned to Balmoral, the stock was brought there by 5065 Newport Castle. The train was taken forward to Shrewsbury by 5029 Nunney Castle and on from Shrewsbury by 46247 City Of Liverpool.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
John,
Being a steam fan, but having not served on the Railways, I take it there is no other port of call to establish where or what he was the driver of then, in relation to the Royal Family query?
Really appreciate everyone assisting on this, what a great site.
Being a steam fan, but having not served on the Railways, I take it there is no other port of call to establish where or what he was the driver of then, in relation to the Royal Family query?
Really appreciate everyone assisting on this, what a great site.
- strang steel
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
The problem is that BR did not appear to retain personnel records, meaning that after 1948 there is very little to go on, unless you can find out where he worked and maybe contact other members of staff who are still alive and can remember Walter Thwaites working there.
On the 1911 census he is living with his mother (who was a widow by then) and most of his family in Sleaford Road, Cambridge. That is very close to the railway, and my guess is that he would have joined the company closest to his residence - but that is not always the case, but we have to start somewhere.
However, by 1914 and the start of WW1 he would have been 19, which adds another complication to his career because of service in the armed forces during the following 4-5 years. There is no guarantee that he joined the railway before the war.
A visit to the National Archives might be beneficial, but you would need to make a plan before your visit, in order to work out exactly what records you needed to search, otherwise it might end up being a wasted visit. Start here first - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/ Many of the records have not been digitised and are not searchable online - more's the pity.
There is a marriage in 1920 of a Walter J Thwaites to Edith R Stonebridge in Cambridge. Is this the right person? because if it is, then at least it will help pinpoint his location at that time. It is most likely that he began as an engine cleaner and worked slowly through the grades to driver, but this may have taken 20-25 years, or even more depending on the staff situation at whichever depots he was assigned to.
I presume that drivers entrusted with the engine pulling the Royal Train were at the top of their profession, and have many decades service.
On the 1911 census he is living with his mother (who was a widow by then) and most of his family in Sleaford Road, Cambridge. That is very close to the railway, and my guess is that he would have joined the company closest to his residence - but that is not always the case, but we have to start somewhere.
However, by 1914 and the start of WW1 he would have been 19, which adds another complication to his career because of service in the armed forces during the following 4-5 years. There is no guarantee that he joined the railway before the war.
A visit to the National Archives might be beneficial, but you would need to make a plan before your visit, in order to work out exactly what records you needed to search, otherwise it might end up being a wasted visit. Start here first - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/ Many of the records have not been digitised and are not searchable online - more's the pity.
There is a marriage in 1920 of a Walter J Thwaites to Edith R Stonebridge in Cambridge. Is this the right person? because if it is, then at least it will help pinpoint his location at that time. It is most likely that he began as an engine cleaner and worked slowly through the grades to driver, but this may have taken 20-25 years, or even more depending on the staff situation at whichever depots he was assigned to.
I presume that drivers entrusted with the engine pulling the Royal Train were at the top of their profession, and have many decades service.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/
Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
John,
Yes he did marry Edith Rachel STONEBRIDGE bn 24/8/1895 died 13/9/1982.
I have the family tree provided by the enquirer, but sadly there appears to be no record of his driving skills in the Flying Scotsman even at the York Records Office where they appear to be held within the Historic Rail fraternity covering such matters.
Thwaites was apparently used on a number of occasions as the driver on the Flying Scotsman and the family have absolutely no reason to disbelieve his claims, but clearly it wasn't used in Cambridge, so I presume we need to confirm which line or depot he worked from to be able to drive it???
Gil
Yes he did marry Edith Rachel STONEBRIDGE bn 24/8/1895 died 13/9/1982.
I have the family tree provided by the enquirer, but sadly there appears to be no record of his driving skills in the Flying Scotsman even at the York Records Office where they appear to be held within the Historic Rail fraternity covering such matters.
Thwaites was apparently used on a number of occasions as the driver on the Flying Scotsman and the family have absolutely no reason to disbelieve his claims, but clearly it wasn't used in Cambridge, so I presume we need to confirm which line or depot he worked from to be able to drive it???
Gil
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Re: WALTER THWAITES - FLYING SCOTSMAN DRIVER
Gil,
The reason I ask about the marriage is because from that I can search the birth records - not because I want to find out private information concerning the family tree, but because the births would have been most likely to have been registered in the district where Walter was living.
This can be very useful for discovering where he may have worked in particular years. In the case of the Thwaites family the mothers' maiden name is great because had it been Smith or Brown, etc., we would have been in trouble. As it is, there are a number of births registered up to the early 1930s, and all were registered in Cambridge.
Therefore, we can be fairly safe in assuming that he remained living either in, or close to Cambridge into the 1930s which makes me suspect that his home depot then would have been Cambridge. He must have moved to the ECML later in his career.
The difficulty that non-railway families have when the Flying Scotsman is mentioned, is that for most of its service life it was just another pacific. It may have held the speed record for a while and be the first loco to reach an authenticated speed of 100mph, but in later years was not singled out for any special attention, or duties by the railway authorities. In fact, it had not even been singled out for preservation, and had Alan Pegler not purchased it privately in 1963 it would most likely have gone the way of all other A3s - razor blades - such was the rush to eliminate 'the steam age' in those days.
The reason I ask about the marriage is because from that I can search the birth records - not because I want to find out private information concerning the family tree, but because the births would have been most likely to have been registered in the district where Walter was living.
This can be very useful for discovering where he may have worked in particular years. In the case of the Thwaites family the mothers' maiden name is great because had it been Smith or Brown, etc., we would have been in trouble. As it is, there are a number of births registered up to the early 1930s, and all were registered in Cambridge.
Therefore, we can be fairly safe in assuming that he remained living either in, or close to Cambridge into the 1930s which makes me suspect that his home depot then would have been Cambridge. He must have moved to the ECML later in his career.
The difficulty that non-railway families have when the Flying Scotsman is mentioned, is that for most of its service life it was just another pacific. It may have held the speed record for a while and be the first loco to reach an authenticated speed of 100mph, but in later years was not singled out for any special attention, or duties by the railway authorities. In fact, it had not even been singled out for preservation, and had Alan Pegler not purchased it privately in 1963 it would most likely have gone the way of all other A3s - razor blades - such was the rush to eliminate 'the steam age' in those days.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/