103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

This forum is for the discussion of all railway subjects that do not include the LNER, and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

User avatar
52D
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3968
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Reallocated now between the Lickey and GWR
Contact:

103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by 52D »

Today 22nd May is the 103rd anniversary of the worst loss of life on the British Railway network, the troop train that crashed at Quintinshill signal box near Gretna Green.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

From a signalman's perspective and speaking from 46 years experience what happened in Quintinshill box that morning was easily done to be honest at least back in those far off days it was.

From memory... James Tinsley a regular signalman at Quintinshill box gets a ride on the footplate of a local train from Gretna station and 'drops off' outside Quintinshill box at around 6:30am and crosses the line and approaches the box staircase. In the meantime George Meakin the other regular signalman at the box and who was on duty crosses the local over onto the Up line (no track circuiting being provided to visually remind the signalman of the train's presence on the box track diagram I believe?). James Tinsley enters the box to be greeted by about half a dozen railwaymen (a distraction in it's self) from the waiting coal trains that were already standing in the Up & Down loops at Quintinshill. The fireman off the local that had been crossed over to the Up line follows Tinsley into the box shortly afterwards to remind the signalman under rule 55 of the train's presence standing immediately outside the box but he didn't ensure that a lever collar was used by the signalman on the lever of the Up line home signal that was protecting the local train (from memory I can't remember if the fireman signed the train register book?). Anyway George Meakin by now off duty was sitting in the box chair reading the morning war news from the newspaper that Tinsley had brought with him to the box while Tinsley himself was focused on 'bringing the book up to date' with the earlier train entry's that George Meakin had dealt with and had written down on a piece of scrap paper so he was pre-occupied and not paying attention to what was going on around him. Tinsley & Meakin had a unofficial arrangement whereby they use to changeover around 6:30am instead of the booked time of 6:00am and so as that the local signalling inspector didn't discover the unofficial change of times from 6:00am onwards the times trains were accepted and dealt with 'on the block' were written down on a piece of scrap paper and then re-written up in the train register book when 'day turn' signalman came on duty. Anyway back to the box and one of the signalmen had 'accepted' the Up troop train and had 'pulled off' the Up line signals that was protecting the crossed over local train and what followed next was the worse accident for deaths in Britain's railway history. In fact it was a double collision after the Up troop train had 'pitched into' the standing local train a Down overnight Euston to Glasgow sleeping car express piled into the wreckage of the first collision!!.

I have nearly 'messed up' a couple of times in the past because of being distracted by someone else in the box it's easy done folks.
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

Back in the late 1980s there was a Scottish relief signalman who was working around some of the North London line boxes who told me that he had occasionally worked Quintinshill box on the relief back in the 1960s & 1970s and who went on to tell me that on each anniversary of the crash you would hear the sound of 'the pipes' being played on the wind from somewhere in that area but no one was ever seen and also you would hear occasional male voices sometimes outside the box but again no one was ever seen??.
User avatar
52D
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3968
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Reallocated now between the Lickey and GWR
Contact:

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by 52D »

ve heard same tale micky
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

The BBC showed a television programme about Quintinshill on the 'telly' back in 1969 or 1970 I remember.

The programme showed the viewer contemporary film footage of the crash site as well as film footage shot inside Quintinshill signal box plus an old boy ex railwayman who was an eye witness to the events on the day and also an explanation of how the crash came about. From memory the old ex railwayman was interviewed tack side with Quintinshill box in the background and he described amongst other things how he witnessed seeing a young soldier having his leg amputated at the bottom of the box staircase!. Also there was some very interesting film footage of the interior of Quintinshill box from 1969 or 1970. I have posted this before saying I presume this programme was probably 'lost' years ago but someone posted it is still available to be seen on the web if you care to search for it.

Note. It appears that the BBC produced a documentary film about the Quintinshill crash in 2015 for the 100th anniversary that was filmed at Blea Moor signal box on the S&C but that is not the film that is being referred to above the film referred to above was filmed at Quintinshill signal box back in 1969 or 1970.
meldrum
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:39 am

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by meldrum »

The program in question was 'Rail crash' and was one of the BBC Horizon programs from 1972.
I remember watching it when it was first broadcast and thought it was very good. I have watched it since on YouTube and in my opinion it's still worth watching and shows how good these older BBC documentaries were.
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

meldrum wrote: Thu May 24, 2018 9:40 pm The program in question was 'Rail crash' and was one of the BBC Horizon programs from 1972.
I remember watching it when it was first broadcast and thought it was very good. I have watched it since on YouTube and in my opinion it's still worth watching and shows how good these older BBC documentaries were.
Yes I happened to see it by chance myself that night back in 1972 but I only ever saw it the once and never again. Yes the BBC use to make and show some interesting programmes about different subjects back in the early 1970s. I suppose the 2015 retelling of the accident filmed at Blea Moor s/box on the Settle & Carlisle is better than nothing for the people who mite never have heard of the accident before but I dare say that it won't be as good as the 1972 programme that actually showed Quintinshill s/box and also had a first hand eye witness account of the aftermath of the accident by someone who was there on that day. I presume the BBC probably 'wiped the tapes' of the 1972 Horizon programme because they use to do that to many of there television recordings of programmes back in the 1960s & 1970s.

Below a rather nice colour photograph of QUINTINSHILL box located in open countryside and looking south towards Gretna. I presume the photograph dates either from the late 1960s or early 1970s?.

http://www.bing.com/images/search?view= ... .Z1NwB63J-...
UpDistant
NBR J36 0-6-0
Posts: 121
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2012 7:27 pm

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by UpDistant »

If you would like an "up to date" take on the disaster, try "The Quintinshill Conspiracy" by (the late) Jack Richards and Adrian Searle, ISBN 978 1 78159 099 7, published 2013. Your local library should be able to source a copy - I got mine from a secondhand book shop. It contains a thorough analysis using previously undisclosed documents and reveals that the failures which led to the disaster were far more complex and wide ranging than just signalling negligence.

It's a very interesting read.
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

UpDistant wrote: Wed May 30, 2018 6:54 pm If you would like an "up to date" take on the disaster, try "The Quintinshill Conspiracy" by (the late) Jack Richards and Adrian Searle, ISBN 978 1 78159 099 7, published 2013. Your local library should be able to source a copy - I got mine from a secondhand book shop. It contains a thorough analysis using previously undisclosed documents and reveals that the failures which led to the disaster were far more complex and wide ranging than just signalling negligence.

It's a very interesting read.
Thanks UpDistant I remember that book being published 5 years ago and I saw a copy of it recently in the Ian Allan shop at Waterloo.

The first time that I read about the Quintinshill accident was back in 1967 in a book called Railway Accidents of the Twentieth Century by J.A.B.Hamilton published by Allen & Unwin in 1967 which I still have in my possession which was one of about twenty other railway accidents that were covered in the same book but around 1971 or 1972 there was a book that was published that was dedicated to the accident and the author was named John Thomas anyway I bought that book as well but I lost it years ago back in the 1970s.
User avatar
thesignalman
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 431
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:37 pm

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by thesignalman »

The trouble I find with more recent documentaries and books is that they are trying to find something to say that hasn't been said before. Whilst there will always be questions, I doubt the answers will be found now.

. . . but I hold my hand up as the person who sent the documentary makers to Blea Moor - there are few layouts today that resemble Quintinshill's and that was the best I could think of.

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

Yes your right John by 2015 film makers I would say were quite limited in finding a signal box layout that resembles or slightly resembles the Quintinshill layout and of course Blea Moore still has Up & Down 'loops' that are still in use (I believe they are still are in 2017?). 50 years ago in the late 1960s when you and me and a number of other's on this forum were 'bunking into' signal boxes there was still quite a few signal boxes scattered around the railways at that time to choose from.

One thing that I remember about the Quintinshill accident that from memory I believe was never established during the court proceedings after the accident from reading the published transcript of the court proceedings that included both signalmen's evidence was who between the both of them at Quintinshill on that fateful morning had accepted the Up troop train?. I have previously thought it mite have been worth asking the Kirkpatrick signalman who was working the next box to the north of Quintinshill who he thought had accepted the Up troop train from him but he was never asked maybe because it wasn't a conclusive way of finding out a definite answer and would have only been a speculative answer on his part?. Some signalmen work the block instruments and ring the block bells slightly differently to the way other signalmen do.
meldrum
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 35
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 10:39 am

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by meldrum »

I have often thought the same as yourself Mickey regarding who was 'on the block' at Quintinshill that morning that accepted the troop train.
I am certain that the signalman at Kirkpatrick knew full well who it was by the rhythm of the bell signals as you have said. Was he ever asked ? Probably not as it was not really evidence. Would he have told them anyway ? Again probably not. I don't think he was ever going to 'bubble' one of his fellow signalmen however terrible the circumstances (in my opinion).
So I'm guessing that the Kirkpatrick signalman knew who it was but took the secret to his grave.

"The Quintinshill Conspiracy" certainly had some interesting facts which threw a lot of new light on the proceedings but I still don't buy in to the conspiracy theory its self, just an other case of overworked signalmen with the outcome in this instance too terrible to imagine.
Trying to weave a conspiracy in to what is otherwise a detailed account of the event spoilt the book (for me anyway).
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

I totally agree with your post above meldrum because many signalmen would either know or suspect they knew who they were working with at the box 'next door' to them by the way the other signalman at that box worked 'the block' although it isn't a 100% guaranteed way of knowing though and it's probably a question that a lawyer wouldn't think to ask in court or if it was thought of the question may not have been accepted as being a positive way of knowing in law who was working the block instruments at that box?.

With regard to which one of them accepted the Up troop train and then 'pulled off' the Up line signals and who also forgot to put a 'lever collar' on the Up home signal that protected the crossed over local train that was standing in the path of the approaching troop train?. Well after re-reading the few pages on this accident that appear in the book called Railway Accidents of the Twentieth Century first published in 1967 the author writes that Meakin crossed the local train over from the Down line to the Up line but he didn't 'Block back' (inside home signal) to Kirkpatrick box by placing the block indicator to 'Train On Line' nor did he place a 'lever collar' on the Up line home signal which would have protected the local train that was standing in the path of the approaching troop train. According to what Meakin was alleged to have claimed afterwards was that "Lever collars were hardly ever used" at Quintinshill by signalmen. I presume Tinsley cleared the Up line signals for the troop train into the path of the standing local train and I suspect in the confusion and aftermath of a massive 'pile up' outside the box which was a double-collision it is likely through total shock of the situation that confronted both signalmen that they both genuinely couldn't remember who did what prior to the immediate crash??.

The Quintinshill crash was subject to Scottish law as it occurred just inside the Scottish border.

It is written that Meakin and Tinsley both suffered 'breakdowns' after the crash while awaiting trail. Meakin was sentenced to 18 months in prison and Tinsley was sentenced to 3 years in prison but both men were freed after a short period of time in prison and re-employed by the Caledonian Railway/LMS, Meakin as a Goods guard for a number of years and Tinsley as a Lampman around the Carlisle area I believe?.

George Meakin died in 1953 and James Tinsley died in 1967.
suggs
NER Y7 0-4-0T
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2018 8:56 pm

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by suggs »

Bit late to enter this discussion but I am new to this forum
I can confirm that Tinsley was employed as a lampman because I knew the Area Inspector at Newcastle, Jack Harrison, who started on the railway as a signal lad in Canal Junction Box, Carlisle. He told me Tinsley did the lamps there.
The “conspiracy” book puts forward the theory that Tinsley had some sort of black out. If this was so I don’t think the Caledonian Railway would have re employed him as a lampman climbing up signal posts!
The photograph of the box was taken by me in 1968 when I was a Newcastle based relief signal lad. Early on a Sunday I went for a ride to Quintinshill on my motor bike and took the pictures. I was disappointed that it was switched out. However I was a bit cheeky and found the hidden key and took a couple of pictures inside.
Many years later I met Janet Cottrell, in fact I was her boss, and showed her the slides and she converted them into prints
Mickey

Re: 103rd anniversary of the quintinshill crash

Post by Mickey »

With regards to James Tinsley and speaking as a railway signalman myself (or signaller?) for currently the last 40 years I haven't read that newish book that you refer to although I have seen a copy of it a couple of years ago in the Ian Allan book shop at Waterloo and the theory that it puts forward of Tinsley 'blacking out' well I would personally be more inclined to have leaned towards him being 'distracted' by having about half a dozen or more railwaymen 'chatting' amongst themselves in the box with him during the time that he arrived in the box to take over from George Meakin and the time leading up to the first collision outside the box.
Last edited by Mickey on Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post Reply