Use of the term 'junction'

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giner
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by giner »

Mickey wrote: Sun Nov 29, 2020 7:30 am Did Langley Junction box have the word 'Junction' included on the box name board?.

I have a vague feeling that both box name boards at either end of the box just had the name LANGLEY and not LANGLEY JUNCTION written on them and that box 'had a real junction' BUT I could be wrong it was 45 years ago the box was abolished?.

A later post...

The Langley Junction track layout and no mention of 'Junction' in the name?. https://www.s-r-s.org.uk/html/lner/E445.gif
Mickey, I do believe you're right in saying that Langley's box just had the word 'Langley' on its boards.

Here's another one for you concerning our neck of the woods: Three Counties Junction on a fast, straight stretch (well, apart from where the up and down slows still bend out for the long-gone island plaforms of the former station. I can only think that 'Junction' here must have referred to the also now long-gone single line off the up slow to the old Fairfield Hospital a mile or so to the east. Whaddya reckon?
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

giner wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 am Mickey, I do believe you're right in saying that Langley's box just had the word 'Langley' on its boards.
Yeah I saw a recent picture of Langley Junction box giner and the north end name board just showed the name LANGLEY only also thinking about it now it has jogged a personal memory of mine because one Saturday afternoon back in 1971-72 I was riding on a Down loco hauled express from Kings Cross (a Brush type 4/class 47 on the front) and the train FAILED right outside Langley box and I remember looking up at the box name board and it just showed the word LANGLEY only.

Another more definite reason I remember that the Langley Junction box name boards only displayed the word LANGLEY is while on the failed train a party of people from 'up north' started to get a bit restless while waiting for the assisting loco to arrive and one bloke from the party said does anyone know where we are(?) and I chirped up and said "We're at Langley" (standing right outside Langley Junction box) and the bloke said in aloud voice to tell everyone else in his party "WE'RE AT LANGTON. WE'RE AT LANGTON!." (Apparently LANGTON does exist and is a place in north Yorkshire).
Last edited by Mickey(BR) on Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by WTTReprinter »

If you look at RCH Junction map No. 23 (the maps are on Wiki I believe) you will see Askern Junction just north of Shaftholme Junction on the route to Knottingley. Askern Jcn. never had any pointwork and was purely the boundary point between the GNR and the L&Y railways so it would appear that a junction doesn't always involve pointwork!
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

giner wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 am Here's another one for you concerning our neck of the woods: Three Counties Junction on a fast, straight stretch (well, apart from where the up and down slows still bend out for the long-gone island plaforms of the former station. I can only think that 'Junction' here must have referred to the also now long-gone single line off the up slow to the old Fairfield Hospital a mile or so to the east. Whaddya reckon?
Maybe giner although I wasn't to familiar with the main line once it entered the 'racing grounds' beyond Cambridge Junction (north of Hitchin) and personally rarely ventured north of Hitchin before 1970 except on a trip behind 4472 in August 1969 to York.

Three Counties (box) was some 'out the way place in the middle of nowhere' that was my early impressions.
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thesignalman
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by thesignalman »

giner wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 amHere's another one for you concerning our neck of the woods: Three Counties Junction on a fast, straight stretch (well, apart from where the up and down slows still bend out for the long-gone island plaforms of the former station. I can only think that 'Junction' here must have referred to the also now long-gone single line off the up slow to the old Fairfield Hospital a mile or so to the east. Whaddya reckon?
I can't say I have ever heard the place called that. The signal box certainly only had "THREE COUNTIES" on the nameplates in the gables, like Langley.

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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

On the face of it the word 'Junction' appeared to be more widely used on the neighbouring Midland Railway signal boxes out of St Pancras than on the GN signal boxes out of Kings Cross.

GN route between Kings Cross & Oakleigh Park approximately 9 miles-
1. Goods And Mineral Junction
2. Copenhagen Junction

MR route between St Pancras & Elstree approximately 9 miles-
1. St Pancras Junction
2. Dock Junction
3. Engine Shed Junction
4. Mortimer Street Junction (on the Barking line)
5. Carlton Road Junction
6. Finchley Road Junction
7. Watling Street Junction
8. Cricklewood Junction
9. Silkstream Junction (Junction on the slow lines & goods lines only north of Hendon)
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giner
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by giner »

thesignalman wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 1:10 pm
giner wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:24 amHere's another one for you concerning our neck of the woods: Three Counties Junction on a fast, straight stretch (well, apart from where the up and down slows still bend out for the long-gone island plaforms of the former station. I can only think that 'Junction' here must have referred to the also now long-gone single line off the up slow to the old Fairfield Hospital a mile or so to the east. Whaddya reckon?
I can't say I have ever heard the place called that. The signal box certainly only had "THREE COUNTIES" on the nameplates in the gables, like Langley.

John
Right you are, John. I was sure I'd come across the word 'junction' being used in conjunction with the station. Maybe it was in an unrelated text and may have been used inaccurately by its author. Looking at the usually reliable old-maps website I can find no reference, either. The branch up to the old hospital can clearly be seen on there.

There's a good piece, which you may have already seen, on this location, here: https://arcangelolombari.wordpress.com/ ... s-station/
and includes some good photos of the box - with Three Counties boards.

Cheers, Giner.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

Question?. Is CLAPHAM JUNCTION a junction?.

Meanwhile back at Three Counties s/box...

I have a complete S&T diagram of a exact copy of the box track diagram dated around 1959-60 although without searching for it I presume that some signalling alterations took place at the box at that time.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

Mickey CT tele-lad wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:12 am Question?. Is CLAPHAM JUNCTION a junction?.
From memory...

Clapham Junction is a confluence of many railway lines which basically breaks down into the south western lines (the old London South Western Railway) and the south central lines (the old London Brighton & South Coast Railway) running parallel for some distance through Clapham Junction station into and out of both Waterloo & Victoria terminus stations respectively with no physical connection between them both (maybe a little used crossover exists I don't know?) along with the old Windsor lines to the north of the south western lines running into and out of Waterloo on the north side of Clapham Junction station heading towards the Barnes direction. Carriage sidings exist in the V of the south western main lines and the Windsor lines heading towards the Barnes direction. A double track junction exists between the Windsor lines leading to and from Latchmere Junction on the West London line via a curved brick built viaduct plus another junction exists between the West London line that heads underneath all the running lines and emerges on a rising gradient into the south side of Clapham Junction station.

Is it a 'junction' then?. Well not in the conventional sense of the word although technically a junction does exist from the Windsor lines side heading to and from the West London line at Latchmere Junction.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by kudu »

So Clapham Junction may not be a junction. A fitting situation since it isn't in Clapham.

Or so I'm told. Coming from the other side of the River, I don't really have a clue.

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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Hatfield Shed »

Mickey(BR) wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:49 pm
Mickey CT tele-lad wrote: Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:12 am Question?. Is CLAPHAM JUNCTION a junction?.
...Is it a 'junction' then?. Well not in the conventional sense of the word although technically a junction does exist from the Windsor lines side heading to and from the West London line at Latchmere Junction.
It must have a purpose, and I suspect that may be to enable passengers to change trains, potentially from one route to another? (As another from North of the river, I treasure my ignorance in these matters.) If this is its primary purpose, then a better title might be 'Exchange' or 'Allstations South'?
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Wed Feb 24, 2021 12:25 pm It must have a purpose, and I suspect that may be to enable passengers to change trains,...
I read something years ago about is Clapham Junction a Junction?. As you are no doubt aware Hatfield Shed the railway lines that run through Clapham Junction can be divided up into the x4 LSWR lines and the x4 LBSCR lines which I don't believe have any connection between each other as such plus the x2 or is it x4 lines running as far as Barnes(?) of the so called 'Windsor lines' running along the north side of the station in and out of Waterloo along with the West London line from Clapham Junction station around to Latchmere Junction and then on through Kensington Olympia to Willesden either side of the stations north and south side.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by StevieG »

Mickey(BR) wrote: Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:24 pm " .... MR route between St Pancras & Elstree approximately 9 miles-
1. St Pancras Junction
2. Dock Junction
3. Engine Shed Junction
4. Mortimer Street Junction (on the Barking line)
5. Carlton Road Junction
6. Finchley Road Junction
7. Watling Street Junction
8. Cricklewood Junction
9. Silkstream Junction (Junction on the slow lines & goods lines only north of Hendon) .... "
Of course Engine Shed, Mortimer Street, Carlton Road, and Cricklewood were junctions in the truest sense anyway Mickey(BR).

Within that distance on the GN, arguably only Finsbury Park and Wood Green would have qualified as 'junctions' in the same way.

Also, did you know that, curiously, at Goods & Mineral, although "Junction" was on the external nameboards, it wasn't part of the name on the box diagram inside.
BZOH

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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by Mickey(BR) »

StevieG wrote: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:17 pm Of course Engine Shed, Mortimer Street, Carlton Road, and Cricklewood were junctions in the truest sense anyway Mickey(BR).

Within that distance on the GN, arguably only Finsbury Park and Wood Green would have qualified as 'junctions' in the same way.

Also, did you know that, curiously, at Goods & Mineral, although "Junction" was on the external nameboards, it wasn't part of the name on the box diagram inside.
With regards to Finsbury Park & Wood Green Stevie obviously both places had 'Junctions' as you know although none of the boxes at those two places were shown as 'junctions' on any of the box nameboards.

With regards to Goods And Mineral Junction no I wasn't aware that the full name wasn't shown on the box track diagram that's interesting though.

When I was at Junction Road Junction box back in the early 1980s some B.R.'bods' showed up one day and while they were in the box they remarked to each other about the box name saying something like that must be a unique name for a 'junction box' being named Junction Road Junction.
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Re: Use of the term 'junction'

Post by StevieG »

Mickey(BR) wrote: Fri Feb 26, 2021 11:21 am " .... With regards to Finsbury Park & Wood Green Stevie obviously both places had 'Junctions' as you know although none of the boxes at those two places were shown as 'junctions' on any of the box nameboards.

With regards to Goods And Mineral Junction no I wasn't aware that the full name wasn't shown on the box track diagram that's interesting though.

When I was at Junction Road Junction box back in the early 1980s some B.R.'bods' showed up one day and while they were in the box they remarked to each other about the box name saying something like that must be a unique name for a 'junction box' being named Junction Road Junction."
Regarding the area of your '9 miles' on the MR Mickey(BR), had your list been of around 19600 or earlier, it would of course have also included : -

North London Incline Junction
Islip Street Junction
Kentish Town Junction, and
Highgate Road junction.
BZOH

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