Electrification?

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sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

I would have thought that during this Cop 26 in Glasgow the government would have given the go ahead for some electrification if only some extension or infill such as Manchester to Stalybridge, Church Fenton to Leeds, the big stuff from any government is very unlikely to happen. Battery and Hydrogen trains were being pushed, nothing wrong with that but it is very disappointing that further wiring up or even third rail Hurst Green to Uckfield was not being pushed even just a little bit!
65447
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Re: Electrification?

Post by 65447 »

Probably too embarrassing to mention with the massive increase in energy costs due to inadequate provision for dependable non-renewable power generation, for when it is dark, the wind does not blow, and Macron and Putin play silly b's with supplies.
Freightliner has reverted the motive power on its services based on Felixstowe Docks to diesel, it not having forward-bought electricity so diesel is substantially cheaper than electric haulage in the present circumstances. Greater Anglia and other passenger-carriers had fixed their electricity prices so not affected - yet.
sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:05 pm

Re: Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

Yes it is all becoming very embarrassing with electricity costs and pollution tying themselves up and if the time should come when the costs will rise sharply for the passenger companies that would really put the cat among the pigeons.
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Electrification?

Post by Hatfield Shed »

And also, that the railway really isn't the problem, so minor tweaks to something that isn't broken might just draw jeers of attempting to distract attention from other sectors with far more significant energy consumption. (I haven't worked it out, but it wouldn't surprise me if coal fired steam on modest speed rail freight was less polluting than diesel powered road transport freight movement.)
sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Re: Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

Well its good news that the Trans Pennine and East Midlands electrification is going ahead as indeed it should have done so already, cancelling HS2 they really did not have much choice, lets hope that wiring up continues in other parts of the country such as the curtailed Great Western schemes, I know it will take a few years before it all gets there but just maybe there is hope on the horizon.
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Electrification?

Post by Hatfield Shed »

There will be an ever increasing pile up of tough calls ahead: improving the most energy efficient method of land transport vs the commitment to reducing national energy consumption, among the effects of which are severe restrictions on new construction, and significant limitations on personal use of transport. It isn't rocket science to work out, with significant restrictions on personal travel, passenger rail infrastructure development will shift to much lower cost investment in projects to raise the efficiency of the installed base, offering 'quick recovery' of the energy used and savings thereafter, rather than new build of ambitious capacity improvement. (Construction expenditure will necessarily be prioritised toward 'carbon neutral' energy provision and more energy efficient housing as most essential.)

Did anyone else watch 'The people vs Climate Change' (BBC2 Tuesday 16th November)? A hundred people carefully selected as representative of the UK's adult population, were exposed to some of the effect of meeting the carbon dioxide emissions target, and asked for their reactions. There was a fair amount of shock about the scale of lifestyle change this will require, and the choices we will necessarily be making in response.

Interestingly the viewers were not made party to the detailed information provided to the sample group, but one element - lightly mangled by the programme makers - slipped out, your flight to Australia was the whole of the desireable maximum annual powered travel per person. (It wasn't clear if this was one way or return, and I suspect the former.) So if anyone reading this has plans to visit family an ocean away, I suggest you get it done sooner rather than later. (And another infrastructure development for the chop, no need for more runways if this is going to become reality, closure of airports is the more likely scenario.)
sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Re: Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

Electrification will have its limitations off the main lines and suburban networks, its not feasible or realistic to wire up every mile of track this is where battery units could well be one answer if costs could be reasonably contained, lets hope that the unit trailed in Glasgow can provide the answers.
65447
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Re: Electrification?

Post by 65447 »

sandwhich wrote: Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:45 pm Electrification will have its limitations off the main lines and suburban networks, its not feasible or realistic to wire up every mile of track this is where battery units could well be one answer if costs could be reasonably contained, lets hope that the unit trailed in Glasgow can provide the answers.
Or where the hydrogen-powered units already on test might fit the bill better... always better to have an alternative source.
sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:05 pm

Re: Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

Yes even hydrogen power should be trialled, coal of course has had its day and oil is heading in that direction but certainly not like the formers demise.
Hatfield Shed
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Re: Electrification?

Post by Hatfield Shed »

I expect flywheel kinetic energy storage proposals to be contenders too. Well suited to routes with traffic too modest to justify electrification but frequent stops allowing regular recharging from fixed mains points, and thus a modest flywheel size to limit the mechanical effects. The vehicle can of course be a hybrid, regular electric on the juice, flywheel off the juice.
Mickey
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Re: Electrification?

Post by Mickey »

Just a slight deviation from the main thrust of this topic thread if you don't mind Hatfield Shed and others.

When I did my little stint in Kings Cross loco between April 1974 & September 1975 as a secondman (still called 'firemen' by a few old drivers back then) I happened to be on a few of these GN Electrification trains at that time which mainly originated from Kings Cross Goods yard and which usually consisted of a rake of flat roofed ex-carriages with the windows boarded up and painted in a drab green livery (later on changed to a grey livery) and always hauled by a blue liveried class 31 with a guards brake van at the rear of the train. Some of the earlier GN Electrification trains had equipment to dig the ground holes for the metal 'up rights' to hang the overhead wires on the catenary equipment along with cement mixers for filling in the 'up rights' into the previously dug holes. The few GN Electrification trains that I was on as a secondman during 1974-1975 were mainly the trains that were for 'wiring up' which would entail after arriving 'on site' from Kings Cross Goods yard the work gangs would climb up onto the carriage roofs and start wiring up the new overhead wires which would entail the GN Electrification train travelling along a stretch of line at a 'walking pace' while the men on the carriage roofs wired up while the train moved along.

From a faded memory of nearly 50 years ago some of these GN Electrification trains would start out on a weekday morning after the 'morning peak' had finished on the Kings Cross area around 9:30-10:00am from Kings Cross Goods yard and would then proceed to it's work site for that day although some of these GN Electrification trains would be out on a Sunday working as well. On completion of the weekdays work around 3:00-3:30pm before the 'evening peak' commenced out of Kings Cross the few GN Electrification trains that I worked on returned back to Kings Cross Goods yard around 4:00pm in the weekday afternoon although I think possibly a few GN Electrification trains after a days work somewhere on the GN inner suburban area would 'out stable' overnight somewhere like New Barnet or Potters Bar or maybe Hertford North also I believe one occasionally stabled in Hornsey Up sidings which later on in the 1970s became Hornsey EMU sidings.

For those who weren't around 50 years ago or have ever wondered where the first overhead wires appeared on the GN area well the first stretch of line that I recall seeing the 'wires go up' was between Oakleigh Park station just north of the station in fact and about the area where New Barnet South Box once stood to the south of New Barnet station across all four running lines and that from memory was about halfway through 1973 that I recall seeing the wires for the first time on the GN inner suburban area.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
rockinjohn
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Re: Electrification?/2nd man

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi Mickey &all as usual your comments are unfailingly relevant to the subjects,the comment on 2nd man/fireman made me smile as I had 2 pals, sorry names long forgotten, from the early-mid '60's, both in the same grade, but one insisted on being called a fireman, he of the 350hp& trip workings, the other being called a 2nd man, KX Shunts MPD to Dep, platforms,maybe Arr. too? I know he must have had other duties also ,now both wore the relevant clothing for the title which I'm sure you &others know what I mean for the era,cap/bags/ pullovers etc,Am trawling thru slowly your NLL signalling posts you &others (you know who your are)need to combine the knowledge gleaned & offer to a wider audience, in maybe booklet form no money in it, but it should really have a wider audience than this particlular forum.jj
Mickey
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Re: Electrification?/2nd man

Post by Mickey »

rockinjohn wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 3:55 am Am trawling thru slowly your NLL signalling posts you &others (you know who your are)need to combine the knowledge gleaned & offer to a wider audience, in maybe booklet form no money in it, but it should really have a wider audience than this particlular forum.jj
I didn't think much of it at the time jj it was all 'in a days or nights work' but on reflection like most railwaymen that worked on the railways for many years they've all no doubt got plenty of stories to tell of things they were either involved in directly or indirectly.

With regards to railway firemen on the footplate and then after steam had finished in 1968 on B.R. being called secondmen during the 1970s that is what I was called when I was at Kings Cross during 1974-1975 and at Stratford in 1979 but I believe for the last few years into the 1980s before the secondman position was abolished when driver only operation came in I think they were officially referred to by British Rail as 'Drivers Assistants' but by that time I was back in the signalling grade by start of 1980.

Sorry to deviate from the topic thread guys.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
sandwhich
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Joined: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:05 pm

Re: Electrification?

Post by sandwhich »

Yes I remember those electrification trains from KX Goods Yard quite a lot of shunting, an additional pilot was needed to deal with this work, GN electrification was first mooted in the 1955 modernisation plan it was pushed again in 1961 and soon fell by the wayside and tried agin in 1966 to no avail, then in 1971 it was finally authorised, there was then no choice, clapped out railcars was the deciding factor, unfortunately with very low morale on the railway at the time when it came about in 1976 it was something of an anti climax with much reluctance to accept change.
As regards secondman/Drivers Assistants that came to an end in 1987 when the grade was done away with but with many retirements coming through it was soon dealt with as regards any surplus.
Mickey
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 783
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: Electrification?

Post by Mickey »

sandwhich wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 6:30 pm Yes I remember those electrification trains from KX Goods Yard quite a lot of shunting, an additional pilot was needed to deal with this work, GN electrification was first mooted in the 1955 modernisation plan it was pushed again in 1961 and soon fell by the wayside and tried again in 1966 to no avail, then in 1971 it was finally authorised, there was then no choice, clapped out railcars was the deciding factor, unfortunately with very low morale on the railway at the time when it came about in 1976 it was something of an anti climax with much reluctance to accept change.
Yes sandwhich I believe it was decided at the highest level that the WCML out of Euston was in more need of modernisation & electrification first before the ECML out of Kings Cross during the early 1960s.
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
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