Deltics and Water Troughs

[markindurham]

How would they have managed during the winter, with the water freezing?

ISTR that the troughs at Garsdale, which were the highest troughs in the UK, had steam heating, but that was an exception, I believe, and was necessary because of the normal winter conditions in that area. I suspect that most troughs had plenty of 'customers', and unless the winters were particularly bad, ice wouldn't get too much chance to form a thick layer in the period between trains. If things were really bad then water would have to be taken in the 'conventional' way at stations, with additional stops for that if necessary.

[giner]

I don't ever remember Langley troughs freezing over in the winter. In the balmy sarf though, wannay? (Plus mucho traffic, of course.)

[Mickey]

From a distant memory (1974-75) i believe you could make a diesel locos steam heating boiler 'prime' accidently?. I think it was caused by either water being carried over from the water tank into the boiler or from water being carried over from the boiler into the water tank i can't remember all these years later which is which?.

As a secondman at Kings Cross (1974-75) i had more experience with the Spanner boilers on the Brush type 2s (class 31s) and i think it would happen if the water in the gauge glass went out of sight in 'the glass' (upwards not downwards) which was rectified by 'blowing the boiler down' which would bring the water back down in the gauge glass quickly and stop the priming.

Mickey

[Trev52A]

I was alerted to this old thread via another website, where I had uploaded a photo of mine from 1970 of a Deltic having its water tank (for the steam-heat boiler) being filled whilst standing at the platform at Newcastle. As this sort of thing was apparently not captured on film all that often I thought it might be of interest to show it here, as well.



Cheers
Trevor

[52H]

The last time I stood with my foot on the water pipe at Newcastle, the pipe jumped off and I got soaked,I drove the deltic to Doncaster in my underwear,with my clothes drying on the heaters,much to the amusement of the second man.

[thesignalman]

I also understand that every the LMS 8F built during and after the war was constructed to original drawing and had water pick up gear, even including the ones built for Turkey (where water was so short that water tank wagons were coupled behind the tender so hardly likely to be needed) and the ones built by the SR (who had no troughs) for the LNER (Cl O6) presumably to the LMS spec for troughs - did they make contact with the trough itself, like the A1s did at first on the ex-NER?

That's fascinating - I didn't think 8Fs would go fast enough to take water from troughs, at least not until they later put balanced wheels on them to work faster freights. From WTTs, freight trains were always booked stops for water on the LMR in the 1960s, only the top EPs were supposed to use troughs although I expect that varied in reality. Not sure how that compares with the East Coast though, not that they had as many freights by comparison.

John

[drmditch]

Please excuse this question on this thread. I am interested in the above statement about the original A1s having problems on the ex-NER troughs. Is there more information anywhere?

[darwins]

Sorry to bounce this after such a long time, but does anyone know if the prototype Deltic had a scoop or not?

[Hatfield Shed]

...I didn't think 8Fs would go fast enough to take water from troughs, at least not until they later put balanced wheels on them to work faster freights...

Unfortunately my 'olde book' on LNWR (and other) loco designs of 1894 by Bowen Cooke is on holiday with an LMS oriented friend. But from memory the LNWR established that 22mph was all that was required for satisfactory water collection, when they were pioneering the idea of water troughs. (Track pans for those West of the pond. It was left to the New York Central Railroad to probe the upper limit, an upstate New York colleague told me that 80mph was too much: some crews succeeded in bursting tender water tanks, until venting of 30% of the top area of the tank was provided.)

Most freight stopped for water of course, many lay by loops had usefully situated water cranes.

[Hatfield Shed]

Sorry to bounce this after such a long time, but does anyone know if the prototype Deltic had a scoop or not?

Anyone in York prepared to look underneath?

Neither the Kitmaster nor the NRM/Bachmann models have one, but that's not evidence.

[darwins]

Yes, any speed over about 22mph works for pickup. There are some videos of freight trains picking up on YouTube.

As to highest speeds, British tenders were well enough vented to pick up at 80mph +

The problem with high speeds was wastage - above about 60mph it was difficult to pick up with a normal scoop as most of the water would get wasted. The LMS came up with a solution to this in the 1930s by having additional vanes ahead of the scoop to direct the water towards the centre.

There was a detailed article on water troughs in the Railway Magazine two or three years ago.

[Hatfield Shed]

Sorry to bounce this after such a long time, but does anyone know if the prototype Deltic had a scoop or not?

Memory finally kicked in and I remembered the Napier Chronicles site.
http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/index.html
I searched on a few permutations of DP1 and water pick up gear, separately and together, and drew a blank. Again not conclusive, but there's the site for anyone else itching to exercise their google-fu prowess.

[thesignalman]

Yes, any speed over about 22mph works for pickup. There are some videos of freight trains picking up on YouTube.

As to highest speeds, British tenders were well enough vented to pick up at 80mph +

The problem with high speeds was wastage - above about 60mph it was difficult to pick up with a normal scoop as most of the water would get wasted. The LMS came up with a solution to this in the 1930s by having additional vanes ahead of the scoop to direct the water towards the centre.

There was a detailed article on water troughs in the Railway Magazine two or three years ago.

But there was a standard speed restriction of 70 mph when passing over troughs, presumably as passing trains would suck the water out and splash it everywhere at higher speeds.

Freight trains were rarely scheduled to take water at troughs to leave some water for the tightly-timed traffic. But that isn't to say they didn't if the need arose.

John

[Mickey]

As for water troughs in general the Southern Region of B.R. never had any water troughs.

[Hatfield Shed]

...troughs...water ...splash it everywhere...Freight trains...

A long time past memorable event at Langley troughs. A fast passenger train loco picked on the troughs as a freight was overtaken. Spray everywhere, and from it emerged a filthy 9F in what looked like glossy brown paint, with clouds of water vapour evaporating from it. So striking for me as a child, I can still see it in my mind's eye.