End of LT steam in 1971

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Mickey
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End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

Was anyone else at the 'End of steam on the London Underground' event in June 1971?. The event was publicised at the time by London Underground about a month before it occurred by them putting up posters at underground stations around London.

A red ex-GWR 0-6-0 57xx pannier tank ran a demonstration ballast train from Moorgate station across the Metropolitan line to Neasden depot in north west London. I was at Neasden depot that Saturday afternoon which held a open day to coincide with the end of steam event which had vast numbers of people in attendance. Eventually the 57xx pannier tank hauling it's train of ballast wagons and brake van arrived on Neasden depot where another red 57xx pannier tank was also 'in steam' as well.

Here are some photographs-
https://photos.smugmug.com/Trains/Londo ... 0671-L.jpg
https://railphotoprints.uk/p69735062/h6 ... #h6a55f94c

L95 one of the red ex-GWR 57xx pannier tanks on a Watford tip working in 1969 two years before the end of steam on London Underground in 1971- https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... n_1969.jpg
Last edited by Mickey on Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:15 am, edited 3 times in total.
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NZRedBaron
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by NZRedBaron »

On a side note, I've wondered on and off for years; why did LT go with ex-GWR pannier tanks? Why not, say, J72's/J83's, or Jinties, or Austerity tanks? I'm guessing that LT's lines had some curves that meant something like the Standard 2 tanks wouldn't have worked, right?
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

Possibly appropriate that about a dozen ex-GWR 57xx pannier tanks were bought by London Transport from B.R.(WR) at the end of the 1950s to be used primarily on L.T. engineering trains and on the 'Watford tip' workings considering the panniers worked over most of the District & Metropolitan lines which also the GWR worked over especially to Smithfield cattle market in earlier times and also around the west & north west London area.

I remember hearing that on the L.T. steam locos (the red ex-GWR pannier tanks) were still working and could be occasionally seen at Lillie Bridge depot near Earls Court station but at a higher level to the District line platforms in 1970 but Lillie Bridge depot was a difficult place to access for a railway enthusiast although when I visited Kensington Olympia station on the west London line in August 1970 which was only half a mile away out of sight around a curve from Lillie Bridge depot I wondered if I mite have saw one but I never did.

I subsequently learned that those red pannier tanks were usually to be seen late at night and during the early hours of the mornings on engineering trains and spent the daylight hours either 'on shed' or shunting in Lillie Bridge depot out of sight to the general public unless they were employed on a Watford tip working.
Last edited by Mickey on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StevieG
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by StevieG »

My "1963" edition "Ian Allan abc London Transport Railways" book quotes seven '5700' Class Panniers transferred from BR in 1957 Mickey, to replace about six older steam locos of three Classes, and for the Metropolitan Line electrification engineering trains; remembering that some locos of the class were built as late as 1950.
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Mickey
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

Out of interest the entire class of ex-GWR 57xx pannier tanks were built by a small number of different firms around the country and not all by the GWR or the Western region at Swindon as you mite think?. I don't profess to be a expert on the subject I obtained all my knowledge on those L.T. 57xx pannier tanks via two dvds and a comprehensive book about the red pannier tanks on London Transport. All the London Transport 57xx pannier tanks were of the 'flatter square cab' type with 'round portholes' front & rear for cab lookouts and none of the locos were fitted with condensing apparatus strangely enough for working over some sub-surface sections of the underground lines.

Apparently Stevie from memory and without having the dvds and book with me to fall back on for knowledge at hand London Transport originally bought maybe 10(?) 57xx pannier tanks from the Western region of B.R. in the late 1950s (1957 as you say) but withdrew two of the locos early on sometime around 1959/60 on maintenance grounds with both withdrawn locos requiring heavy maintenance repairs before they could be returned to traffic so instead of spending money on repairs on those two locos it was cheaper just to scrap them and buy two other locos from B.R. but instead of issuing those two newer locos with new L.T. numbers they simply took the two older L.T. numbers from the scrapped locos instead and gave them to the two newer locos.

From what I understand the 57xx pannier tanks were retained by L.T. after steam had finished on B.R. in August 1968 because the L.T. battery locomotives couldn't handle the 'Watford tip workings' as the train loads were beyond what they could pull so L.T. retained the 57xx pannier tanks for that working in particular and finally withdrew the last three remaining 57xx pannier tanks from Neasden London Transport depot in June 1971 and as I previously posted I attended that event which from memory happened on a Saturday. Also I remember a nice view from Neasden L.T. depot could be had across the Metropolitan & B.R. Marylebone lines of Neasden North Junction signal box in the far distance on the Neasden South Junction-Wembley Hill-Blind Lane-Sudbury & Harrow Road-Northolt East Junction line which appeared to have been 'switched out' that afternoon with the two tall Down lines co-acting arms home signals near the box being left in the 'off position' all the time.

Apparently about half of the 12 or 13 ex-London Transport 57xx pannier tanks were saved for preservation and are retained at various heritage railway centres around the country with some of them reverting back to their former B.R. numbers and liveries.
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Pyewipe Junction »

NZRedBaron wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:10 pm On a side note, I've wondered on and off for years; why did LT go with ex-GWR pannier tanks? Why not, say, J72's/J83's, or Jinties, or Austerity tanks? I'm guessing that LT's lines had some curves that meant something like the Standard 2 tanks wouldn't have worked, right?
The J72s, J83s and J94s were designed as shunters and probably couldn't have handled the trip work that was also required on the LT system. I can only assume that LT chose the 57xxs over the Jinties for operational reasons. The 57xxs were known to have rapid acceleration, which would have been a great advantage. It's interesting that LT didn't choose any of the 57xxs designed to work over the Metroplitan to Smithfield and equipped with condensing apparatus.
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by kudu »

I had a cabride on an overnight engineering train from Lille Bridge to Neasden and back, probably in 1970, but sadly I can't find details, so don't even know which one it was.

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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by StevieG »

Pyewipe Junction wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:05 pm " .... It's interesting that LT didn't choose any of the 57xxs designed to work over the Metroplitan to Smithfield and equipped with condensing apparatus."
I've no idea of the effectiveness of the 57xx's condensing apparatus, but I recall that amongst several anecdotes of retired KX diesel footplatemen who'd also worked in the all-steam era, the majority of opinions of the condensing N2s that worked to/from Moorgate was that the apparatus was difficult &/or insufficiently effective to be worth using, and so they didn't bother with employing it.
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

kudu wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:04 pm I had a cabride on an overnight engineering train from Lille Bridge to Neasden and back, probably in 1970, but sadly I can't find details, so don't even know which one it was.
By the beginning of 1970 five locos were left in traffic out of the eleven that were in total at onetime kudu.
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Mickey
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

The 57xx red pannier tanks list that were transferred and owned by London Transport.

L89 Built by the GWR at Swindon in 1929 and was transferred to London Transport 08/08/63 and withdrawn 20/01/70 and has been preserved.

L90 (1) Built by Kerr Stuart in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 07/10/56 but returned to B.R. 29/09/61 and was scrapped.
L90 (2) Built by the North British Company in Glasgow and was transferred to London Transport 14/11/61 and withdrawn 06/06/71 and has been preserved.

L91 (1) Entered traffic at Old Oak Common in 1929 and was transferred to London Transport 25/02/57 but returned to B.R. 18/11/60 and was scrapped.
L91 (2) Built in 1929 by the GWR at Swindon and was transferred to London Transport 18/11/60 and withdrawn in December 1969 and was scrapped.

L92 Built by the GWR at Swindon in 1929 and was transferred to London Transport 20/04/58 and withdrawn 03/10/69 and has been preserved.
L93 Built by Armstrong-Whitworth in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 05/10/58 and withdrawn in 1967 and was scrapped.
L94 Built by the North British Company in Glasgow and was transferred to London Transport 01/11/59 and withdrawn 06/06/71 and has been preserved.
L95 Built in 1929 by the GWR at Swindon and was transferred to London Transport 22/05/60 and withdrawn 06/06/71 and has been preserved.
L96 Built by the North British Company in Glasgow in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 14/11/61 and was withdrawn in December 1966 and was scrapped.
L97 Built by the North British Company in Glasgow in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 11/08/62 and was withdrawn in 1968 and was scrapped.
L98 Built by the North British Company in Glasgow in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 04/12/62 and was withdrawn in November 1968 and was scrapped.
L99 Built by Kerr Stuart in 1930 and was transferred to London Transport 24/06/63 and withdrawn 01/01/70 and was preserved.

Below the preserved L92 seen at Buckfastleigh in 2014-
https://locoyard.files.wordpress.com/20 ... r-tank.jpg
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Mickey
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

Pyewipe Junction wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:05 pm
NZRedBaron wrote: Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:10 pm On a side note, I've wondered on and off for years; why did LT go with ex-GWR pannier tanks? Why not, say, J72's/J83's, or Jinties, or Austerity tanks? I'm guessing that LT's lines had some curves that meant something like the Standard 2 tanks wouldn't have worked, right?
The J72s, J83s and J94s were designed as shunters and probably couldn't have handled the trip work that was also required on the LT system. I can only assume that LT chose the 57xxs over the Jinties for operational reasons. The 57xxs were known to have rapid acceleration, which would have been a great advantage. It's interesting that LT didn't choose any of the 57xxs designed to work over the Metroplitan to Smithfield and equipped with condensing apparatus.
According to a dvd of steam on the London Underground during the 1960s that I have watched it comments that the 57xx pannier tanks were capable of a "good turn of speed" when they were out side of either Lillie Bridge or Neasden depots during the 'normal service' hours which they had to be to "get out of the way of the normal passenger carrying tube trains." Also the 57xx pannier tanks were ideal for pulling the relatively short L.T. engineering trains which usually consisted of a 57xx pannier tank a front brake van then three or for open wagons and a rear brake van. L.T. engineering trains were usually short in length due to the nightly restricted track access time that they had to work on sections of the underground between the time the DC current was switched off and the time that it was switched back on again which was around 4 hours.

The 57xx pannier tanks being of GWR heritage were all driven from the right-hand side of the footplate although most of the L.T. colour light signalling was situated on the left-hand side of the track during the normal forward direction of travel (chimney first) although that situation probably didn't make much difference to a loco driver.

London's Underground dvd Sparks and Steam-
https://transportvideo.com/?s=sparks+and+steam Actually this dvd features some nice amateur colour film footage of the 57xx pannier tanks 'in steam' around 1969-71 either shunting in Lillie Bridge depot or out and about on the Metropolitan and District lines of London Underground.
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manna
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

I was there, I took some pics at Barbican, then traveled out to Neasden on a special tube train. I'll see if I can find them.

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi had a pal who was a fireman@ Kentish Town(14B)in early steam days he said the Fowler 2MT tanks on the St Albans/Luton runs from Moorgate(peak), went into Derby for a Major with the condensing gear locked up solid &came back the same albeit the locos painted &lined out,they had enough trouble making the "Kettle boil" without that problem anyway, but not as bad as the Stanier 2MT tanks(without condensing gear) on the Barking run,trip gear worked on the Fowlers but was never checked by LT staff in all his time to his knowledge @ 14B.
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by Mickey »

manna wrote: Tue Jul 07, 2020 4:06 am I was there, I took some pics at Barbican, then traveled out to Neasden on a special tube train. I'll see if I can find them.
We may have unknowingly 'rubbed shoulders' in the crowds at Neasden L.T. depot that Saturday manna?.

Two of the final three pannier tanks were 'in steam' amongst the gathered crowds that Saturday afternoon and I presume most people attending the event at Neasden depot thought that was it no more steam locos to be seen. The preservation movement was only just starting up in 1971.

Below Pannier tank L95 at Watford tip-
https://photos.smugmug.com/Trains/Londo ... 0169-L.jpg
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manna
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Re: End of LT steam in 1971

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Hi Mickey, I knew I had some pics of the last day if steam on LT. I still have a few more somewhere.

manna
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L90 at Neasden 1971.jpg
L94 at the Barbican 1971.jpg
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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