ECS from Hornsey CS

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Mickey
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/loco light

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Sun Jul 04, 2021 3:06 pm In winter Mickey, didn't a light engine run Down to these outstabled rakes (at like Barnet, Potters Bar, Cuffley, ...) rather earlier - like around 4am to 5am ; (and specially on Mondays if the stock had stood since Friday night) - to melt any frost & ice, and warm up the stock by steam-heating it, before it needed to run on service ?
That could well have happened during that earlier hours Stevie although would that have been during the late 1960s?. The few number of times that I recall being on those diagrams as a secondman during the morning peaks they were with trains usually starting from Cuffley and about three times from Hertford North during the second half of 1974. I also have a vague feeling one morning I was on a train of 'block enders' that started from the back platform at WGC but usually it was trains starting and running up the Hertford loop either into Kings Cross suburban or Moorgate over the Widen lines. I remember being on a number of 'block ender' trains from Moorgate during the evening peak heading down road to WGC although I don't recall ever terminating any of those trains at Hatfield even though about three sets of 'block enders' were stabled in the Up sidings outside Hatfield No.2 box. Again these diagrams all happened during the second half of 1974 and the locos were always blue livered Brush type 2s.
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/loco light

Post by Mickey »

rockinjohn wrote: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:16 am Hi Mickey&Stevie G yep that was the sidings dont think the sidings near Holloway East used for carriage stk @ this time,now that was an awful lot of light loco running mileage & you mentioned WGC!the mind boggles on this starting/finishing point,have been reading a couple of websites that ref:Holloway Carriage sidings & the "creep" living alongside for so many years maybe things changed?folks seem to believe a lot of empty stock movements went fom Holloway Down Carriage sidings via Clarence Yard &the Creep""to the "X"when one considers most stk stabled was of the Pullman variety @ this location, I can vouch they never went that way!I can give you relevant web sites if required? if xtra shilllings/pdns been around I dont think I would have had such "tunnel"vision on this area or the London Metro.Area BR or LT.jj
Holloway Down carriage sidings jj?. Yeah I went in the them on a few occasions during the second half of 1974 and as sidings go the only notable thing about the sidings was all the roads about 8 roads(?) were all straight and ended at buffer stops plus all the roads were on a bit of a falling gradient towards the buffer stops.

What loco drivers on the diesels at Kings Cross would do if they were stabling a rake of coaches in the Holloway Down carriage sidings was after drawing well passed Holloway North Down box probably up to Holloway North Downs starting signals on either the Down goods no.1 or Down goods no.2 lines they would stop the train and wait for the signalman to set up the road back into the sidings roads. Once a couple maybe three 'dollies' (disc signals) were pulled off from the Down goods no.1 or no.2 lines back into the Down sidings roads the driver would take the engines holding brake off and open the locos controller a notch or two and start to push the train a few coach lengths towards the sidings and then shut the controller and let the trains own momentum 'pull the train back down into the siding road' by the trains own coaches passed Holloway North Down box and then just use the engine brake to check the trains speed which wasn't that fast maybe 3 or 4 mph until the loco was 'inside' off either the Down goods no.1 or no.2 lines and then stop the train completely once the loco was just inside the exit signal and trap points onto the Down goods lines.

Holloway Down carriage sidings closed I assume at the end of the 1970s or early 1980s anyway the former sidings were built over and have residential housing on that former site since maybe for the last three or four decades.
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rockinjohn
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/loco light

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi Mickey, Holloway sidings dead end never knew that,so a clear explanation of the down movements,thank you, so "to the "X" meant a run round after proceeding on the down slow/main, once gained to stop somewhere near the wooden sheds that held the "Cravens"@ Clarence Yard, then run around into the "X"Is this correct? or further out to Hornsey/Bounds Green for the run round.jj
Mickey
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by Mickey »

ECS or goods trains could be run/round on the Down goods lines between Finsbury Park No.2 & Finsbury Park No.3 s/boxes opposite Western sidings (the DMU sidings) to the south of Finsbury Park. After running round a train between Finsbury Park No.2 & Finsbury Park No.3 trains could either go via 'the creep up' back up towards Kings Cross or Kings Cross Goods yard the points to access 'the creep up' were originally controlled by Ashburton Grove box until the box was closed during 1974 after which they were controlled by the panel in Finsbury Park No.2 box or into Ashburton Grove rubbish sidings or along the Up goods line via Finsbury Park No.1 s/box and towards the North London line at Canonbury Junction and again after Finsbury Park No.1 s/box closed during 1974 it's former area of control was taken over by the panel in Finsbury Park No.2 s/box.
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StevieG
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by StevieG »

Remember Mickey and rockinjohn, that some ECS from Holloway to 'the Cross' were booked via the "High Level Crossover".
Even after Holloway North Up box was closed, and the HL xover was simplified and its working transferred to North Down (released from South Up), it still ran from 'the Long Road' (outside of, and parallel with, Down Slow 2, and running from North Down to Fins.Pk. No.3 boxes) over to the Up Fast.
How those trains were worked I'm not sure though. Presumably the Holloway pilot pulled the train out and fully onto 'the Long Road' & detached, and the train engine was then dropped in onto the south end and attached, to await getting the road across to the UF.
BZOH

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rockinjohn
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/loco light

Post by rockinjohn »

HI Mickey&Stevie G thanks can understand why control would prefer Bounds Green or Hornsey,after that/those stock movements, like I said I really can only remember the Pullmans stabled @ Holloway Sidings, I'm sure their was other mainline stock blood &custard but not remembered,the days of Push&Pull or EMU to make operating easier were a long way off in the future.
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by Mickey »

StevieG wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:06 am Remember Mickey and rockinjohn, that some ECS from Holloway to 'the Cross' were booked via the "High Level Crossover".
Even after Holloway North Up box was closed, and the HL xover was simplified and its working transferred to North Down (released from South Up), it still ran from 'the Long Road' (outside of, and parallel with, Down Slow 2, and running from North Down to Fins.Pk. No.3 boxes) over to the Up Fast.
How those trains were worked I'm not sure though. Presumably the Holloway pilot pulled the train out and fully onto 'the Long Road' & detached, and the train engine was then dropped in onto the south end and attached, to await getting the road across to the UF.
100% correct Stevie and totally correct also with regards to the Holloway Down carriage sidings 350hp diesel shunter pulling the ECS out of one of the carriage roads and on into the 'long road' siding where it would stop and then the loco that was to work the ECS back up to Kings Cross would then attach to the rear of the ECS after which the loco crew would then 'change ends' for the short journey up to Kings Cross.

On all the running lines at Holloway North Down the box had quite a small collection of semaphore signals and ground disc signals along with some miniature arms on straight posts and even a couple of subsidiary 'calling on' arms beneath the starting signal on the Down goods no.1 & Down goods no.2 lines on that bracket post Stevie.

In 'my time' jj the late 1960s & early/mid 1970s that Holloway Down carriage sidings was more often than not virtually full of blue/grey B.R.Mk1s & Mk2s. I presume it's days were numbered by the later 1970s with the introduction of HSTs and the gradual phasing out of main line loco hauled trains.
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StevieG
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by StevieG »

Mickey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:11 am ".... On all the running lines at Holloway North Down the box had quite a small collection of semaphore signals and ground disc signals along with some miniature arms on straight posts and even a couple of subsidiary 'calling on' arms beneath the starting signal on the Down goods no.1 & Down goods no.2 lines on that bracket post Stevie. ...."
Quite right Mickey. I know quite well what signalling there was throughout the area in approx. 1968-1972.
Mickey wrote: Wed Jul 07, 2021 5:11 am ".... In 'my time' jj the late 1960s & early/mid 1970s that Holloway Down carriage sidings was more often than not virtually full of blue/grey B.R.Mk1s & Mk2s. I presume it's days were numbered by the later 1970s with the introduction of HSTs and the gradual phasing out of main line loco hauled trains. ...."
Right again about the C.S. not lasting long after that Mickey.
As you may recall, initially the 1976 new layout's Down Goods turned off the Down Slow at 2043 points part-way up Holloway 'Bank' but quickly became formed by the old Down Goods No.1 as it passed onto the western span of Holloway Road underbridge and continued on to the Clarence Yard area.
Somewhere close to, or just north of, the site of Holl. North Down box, the first encountered connection in the 'new' DG was a crossover from the old DG2,which had been made the only access to/from the C.S., and which had been renamed Shunt and Run-Round line (and also continued north until merging with the DG at the next Down signals near Clarence Yard).
The new 1976 signalling there controlled by KX PSB included an overhanging bracketed 3-aspect main signal close to HND, K319 (protecting the above-mentioned crossover), a 'dolly' in parallel for exiting the sidings, Up-facing 'dollies' on both roads at the north end of the crossover, and those next Down signals on the two lines, K325 & 327.

But as you say, the Carriage sidings' days were numbered, and, although I've no note of when, they were closed, and not long after (I think), the Sh./RR line and sigs. K319, 325, and the associated points and 'dollies' were abolished, the start of the DG off the Down Slow was then moved north to be at Hornsey Road underbridge (new Position 1 'feather' on DS sig. K321; while DS K315 Pos.1 and DF K317 Pos.2 'feathers' were abolished), and the old DG lines' bridge spans over Holloway and Hornsey Roads became trackless, and were later removed.
BZOH

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Mickey
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by Mickey »

On reflection Stevie Holloway North Down was an interesting box and I would imagine a interesting box to work as well. As previously posted years ago I did happen to visit the box on two separate occasions once around 1971-72 and the second time during the second half of 1974 and on the second occasion Keith Challon was working the box. I use to like Holloway North Down's Down goods line home signal from Holloway South Down that was carried on a white wooden bracket post with two tallish white wooden dolls with added top finals (spikes on top of the signal post) with one stop signal arm reading along the Down goods no.1 line and the other stop signal arm beside it reading along the Down goods no.2 line, I always thought that was a nice looking bracket signal possibly even worth preserving although I presume on closure of Holloway North Down in the summer of 1976 it was probably 'hacked down' and ended up on a bonfire nearby?.
Last edited by Mickey on Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/"The Creep"

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi Mickey/Stevie G&all just a fleeting memory of the "Creep" which had a pair of running lines up from the points @ the bottom of the main line overbridge leading to Clarence Yard @ the Ashburton Grove end(remember I'm not a railwayman so not sure on boxes or points names)now stock from memory was propelled up the "creep"& the loco would run round over using some catch? points before the top of Ashburton Grove &run back on to the stock before crossing Hornsey Rd Bridge on the way to the "X",I saw in all those years two(2) derailments on those points one an N1 &the other an N2.(neither derailed to be near the parapet fencing luckly) over the years L1/J50/BTH type 1 & of course Brush Type2"s were seen performing this run round, now my question is, if the line the stock waited on was the "UP" was the other the "DOWN"? &was it ever used for any reason other than "run round" loco purposes.jj
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by Mickey »

I forget what the actual gradient profile to 'the creep up' was but I went up it maybe 7 or 8 times on a diesel loco during 1974-75 and from memory it was fairly steep but the distance from the bottom at Ashburton Grove s/box to joining the main running lines higher up the hill around Hornsey bridge sidings wasn't to long a distance for a loco and it's train to endure.

A railway friend and myself visited Ashburton Grove s/box one afternoon for around 30-40 minutes back in the summer of 1971 with my friend taking a couple of photographs of the box one outside and one inside of the lever frame and block shelf that are posted on the Ashburton Grove topic thread on here.
Last edited by Mickey on Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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StevieG
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/"The Creep"

Post by StevieG »

rockinjohn wrote: Thu Jul 08, 2021 5:28 am " .... now my question is, if the line the stock waited on was the "UP" was the other the "DOWN"? &was it ever used for any reason other than "run round" loco purposes.jj
It wasn't rockinjohn. It was only for the run-rounds, and all three sets of points involved were '1-way Handpoints' or Spring points, not worked from any signal box.
I could well imagine that there was a derailment risk if any of them didn't quite fit up properly in their 'normal' (sprung) position when passed over in a facing direction by a loco running-round its ECS train.
BZOH

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rockinjohn
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/"The Creep"

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi Stevie G/Mickey thanks for replies, makes sense, you mentioned 3sets of points?also mickey, couldnt gain access to that link you supplied locked out?Rgds jj
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS/"The Creep"

Post by Mickey »

rockinjohn wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:58 am also mickey, couldnt gain access to that link you supplied locked out?Rgds jj
Yeah it's loocked out as you say jj but it was ok last Thursday morning, I mite as well delete that link altogether.

"Ashburton Grove was a nice little box the kind of box I could have done 45 years at as a resident signalman quite happily."
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Re: ECS from Hornsey CS

Post by Mickey »

I don't think hardly any sets of main line coaches used 'the creep up' normally because virtually all main line ECS came up from either Bounds Green or Hornsey carriage sidings. I think 'the creep up' was mainly used by light engines and trip freights heading up towards Kings Cross or Kings Cross Goods yard.
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