Memories

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sandwhich
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Re: Memories

Post by sandwhich »

Yes Goods & Mineral Box must have been a really busy box in its heyday, as well as the normal yard pilots which I think there was at one time eight of them but had been reduced by the time I started in 1962, there was two more, one as has been said used on the North London which if memory serves me correctly was a day shift, the other was two shifts and went up to sidings called the Caledonian Goods & Coal Yard which was over Copenhagen Tunnel known as the "farm" which ran up there behind the G & M Box and the Driver needed a train staff for this move also.
As regards the Belle Isle box we got to know the signalmen because when you were light engine to KX if the loco had discs on the front he did not know where you were going and had to ask, sometimes you would wait there for a few minutes and he would ask if we would llke a cup of tea as he had just made himself one, one of the signalmen was a young man and we would always throw a few insults at one another when we stopped, when the diesels had the numbers instead of the discs we would use 0B01 for the pass loco and for example 0A22 for train working which saved him for asking, with this signalman I would point up to the indicator usually with the wrong finger, I always received a suitable reply. I never did find out his name, everbody got on with him.
Mickey

Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

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StevieG
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Re: Memories

Post by StevieG »

Micky wrote:Some interesting stuff there sandwhich & Stevie's previous post on Goods & Mineral as well.

Blimey that staircase was bit of a climb from the bottom up to the box door thare was a halfway landing i recall.

1.The subsidary arm underneath Goods & Mineral's down goods line starter was a SHUNT AHEAD i believe?.
2.Was there a Gong mounted on the tall tubular signal post with the x2 miniture arms on the shunt neck before Copenhagen tunnel entrance?.
3.What was the block working over the up & down goods lines to & from Holloway south up & Holloway south down was it Permissive or Absolute block?.
Your earlier query - 'Could you go Dn.Sth.Ldn.Gds. to 'the Lickey?' - Answer, yes!
You may remember Goods & Mineral's Home signal on that line as just a plain straight post on the left with one arm (No.34 IIRC) reading to the Down Goods and straight into Cop'n. Tunnel, but the previous one was an odd-looking beast: - A right-hand side main post with L/H bracket and two dolls suspended from it, each carrying a full-size arm with both being level with each other. The L/H arm was the one to the Down Goods, but the R/H arm (35 I think) applied virtually straight ahead, onto 'the Lickey', as far as Cop.Jn.'s home thereon (probably an engine length or three beyond G&M's pointwork).
On 'the Lickey' G&M had a miniature arm signal near the top (28), reading back southwards to three 'dollies' (ground discs) virtually under the N.London line viaduct, from where you could get to anywhere between the 'Cemetery sidings' (right beside, but above, the DSLG line), and the "Up Engine Line" (Top Shed inlet road): No.28 was for some reason, known by the signalmen as 'Baggott's Distant', presumably because there was once a Signalman Baggott there and perhaps he had some sort of incident involving that signal.
No doubt this facility to draw onto, then back from, 'the Lickey', was to allow engines from King's Cross for Top Shed to get onto shed, or at least get as far as being ready to move back south into there, without conflicting with movements on the Up and Down Goods lines.

Then, your questions above :
"1.": Yes, the sub (66) under 67 Down Goods starter, was a Shunt-Ahead.

"2.": There was a gong under the double miniature signal for the Spur (Nos. 84 & 85) : It was a 'Stop shunt' gong for 84 (the top arm), which read to the Down Goods to 92 disc right outside the box - from there moves could carry on to the Goods Departure, or with 76 disc beyond, go to the Up Engine Line [by the late '60s, called the 'New Reception', as it only led to those sidings by then], or (with 92 disc) to either the 'North Yard' (Nos. 3 to 8 Arch sidings) or 'under the wall' (Nos. 10-12 Arch sidings); [so called because the points leading to them passed under the steep Caledonian Coal Yard viaduct as it rose from 9 Arch to pass right behind G&M box's back windows on the way up to the reversing spur behind the south side of Blundell Street, then curving round to pass above Copenhagen Tunnel portals (and past the back of the one-time site of the sham house that was supposed to be "The Ladykillers" 's Mrs. Wilberforce's abode) ].

The gong (mechanical) on 84/85 post automatically clanged once whenever 84 (not 85, which read to the NL Incline) was put back to Danger as, IIRC, it could be left 'off' along with 94 miniature out of the North Yard to the Spur, allowing continual shunting out and back from/to the yard without the signalman needing to operate anything.

[ There was also a 'stop shunting' signal (98) in the North Yard protecting the convergence of all the yard handpoints, and this was usually left 'off' (lever Reverse: Unlike some of Five Arch 'points box's signals which were 'stop shunt' signals to the 'n'th degree, being in the 'off' position when the levers were Normal, and I think, understandably including "PULL TO PUT TO DANGER" on the lever badge ), except when G&M needed to signal a movement in. And this signal also had that sort of gong on it, plus a notice board that read something roughly like 'All movements must stand south of this board when this signal is at danger'.]

"3.": The Up and Down Goods lines were 'Absolute Block' : Presumably because of the tunnel.

Micky,
You mentioned that Goods & Mineral box's stairs were quite a climb, thanks to the box being so tall. I referred to the North London Incline line being worked using an OES Staff : I was told by one signalman there that at some time, to save going down and back up the stairs every time the staff had to be issued for a train to go up the incline, that someone had sharpened the staff's bottom end somewhat, so that delivering the staff could be done by holding it hanging vertically over the handrail of the stairs-top verandah at a certain spot and (checking that no-one was close below) just letting it drop straight down, where it would embed itself in the end of a wooden track sleeper like a (short) spear!
BZOH

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Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

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StevieG
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Re: Memories

Post by StevieG »

Micky wrote: " .... When i first went to Camden Road s/box in 1987 the Kings Cross incline was designated a goods line still but around 1990 it was up-graded to 'passenger status' which meant that the trap points at the 'top of the incline' were abolished and plain lined and the ground position lights that either took a driver onto or off of the incline were replaced with ordinary colour light signals (at Camden Road station a position light was abolished and a set of right-hand 'feathers' was added to the 3-aspect signal). Also the OHL equipment was usually left isolated (switched off) and was only livened up when a AC loco was to travel over the incline then once the AC loco had passed off the incline the OHL equipment would be re-isolated again. "
That 1990 upgrade to the Incline's signlling must also have been the time when the little (1974/5?) "Freight Terminal Junction" panel 'signal box' (modern 'hut' : Would have only been a Shunter's control panel 'ground frame' but for being part of the Incline line's control as a running line, so had to be manned by someone in signalman grade) was abolished and the bottom of the Incline with what little was left in the way of connections into 'the Goods Yard', was put onto direct control by King's Cross power box.

And the current name of the points connection with the Down Slow, that was "Freight Terminal Junction" in the Appendix until fairly recently ? - - "Copenhagen Junction" !
BZOH

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sandwhich
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Re: Memories

Post by sandwhich »

I remember the closure of 5 arch box as it was known and Goods & Mineral in 1975 and their replacement with the new cabin which was placed midway between the two closed boxes, I was a shunt driver in the goods yard at the time and we had to get used to a whole new way of working which we soon did.
Talking of the North London incline after it became a "proper" running road to Camden Road, one Saturday I worked a special of 11 Mark 2 coaches with a Class 47 diesel from Cambridge to the West Country as far as Ealing Broadway, good job it was a dry day as I might have been in trouble lifting this train with a full load of passengers up that incline, the speed dropped down to around 5 mph at the top, then their was the climb through Gospel Oak which was just as challenging.
Going back to the Goods Yard and its pilots, when I was there the Drivers all had to learn the route up the incline just in case a train got stuck there and you had to go and assist. I only heard of this happening on one occasion. Now of course the original incline is no more and has been replaced by a new alignment a little way to the south.
Mickey

Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

If i recall the gradient on the Kings Cross incline was for a short'ish distance 1 in 37 the same gradient that is (or was) on the 'Lickey incline' that use to make me smile. :wink:

After they up graded the Kings Cross incline to 'passenger status' and started running more heavy freight trains over it there was more problems with trains 'failing on the incline' plus there was a lot of 'rail burn' to the rails as well!.

A signalman that worked Kings Cross Freight Terminal shunting panel for a short time during the 1980s was a bloke called Kevin Woods who i got to know quite well and who i have run into on & off over the last 25 years.
Mickey

Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

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manna
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Re: Memories

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Very nostalgic there Micky, What DVD was that mate, I fancy a gander at that, the knock of the coupling was very rhythmic, and at night could make you want to drop off.

Anyone know whats happening with the new platforms at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, please :wink:

manna
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StevieG
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Re: Memories

Post by StevieG »

manna wrote: " .... Anyone know whats happening with the new platforms at Alexandra Palace and Finsbury Park, please :wink:

manna "
Ah, the F2A project, manna [Finsbury Park '2' Alexandra Palace :roll: :x ].

You may be aware that the main point of the project (there are some minor ehancements to be done to the Down Slow No.2 I think) is to convert the Up Goods between Alexandra Palace (formerly Wood Green station), Finsbury Park, and Holloway (modern 'north': Site of Hornsey Road Bridge Sidings) to be an Up Slow No.2 (with the present US becoming US No.1 of course), serving AP and FP stations (not Hornsey or Harringay), and involving creation (restoration :) ) of a third passenger track through AP station, from the Up Hertford line, before the present Up Hertford/Up Slow convergence outside Bounds Green depot, to the pointwork south of the station.

From what I've seen, Finsbury Park is easy - the Down Fast platform (No.3; used to be 5)'s been extended over Bridge 16 (Stroud Green Road: bridge span made wider), looks like to 12-Car train length, and only last evening, through the train window on a misty-damp night, I think I glimpsed from the DF, that Down Slow No.1's west side platform face, No.5, is getting the same treatment. (Plat.5 was the former 7 : No.4 [was 6] face on DS1's east side is not normally used any more - 25+ years? : Seemingly DOO, and passenger doors in use of both sides of trains, don't mix.)

The main work though is the significant amount of works being done to re-instate, and also extend over Br.16, the old Platforms 1-2 island, (No.1 had once been the Up platform for 'Northern Heights' branch lines' services [Edgware, High Barnet, and Alexandra Palace]), but probably only for the No.1 side - not having an operational west-side face, to serve what's now the Up Goods, but will become Up Slow No.2. That would also allow this 'new' US2 platform to be another example of being numbered '0' ("zero"), thus not disturbing the current numbering of all the other platforms.
This extension north over and slightly beyond, Stroud Green Road bridge is being constructed to the full width of the old platform island, even though the old platform No.2 (the Up Slow's old east side platform face) was 'de-edged' and has not been used for about 40 years : Perhaps someone's decided to do that in case at any future time, it's decided to switch Up Slow (will be Up Slow No.1) trains' platform use from the present west side (current Plat.1) to the line's east side platform face instead.

There are some changes to pointwork in this scheme.
Where the Up Canonbury and Up Moorgate run down the slope south of the station (through what was once part of East Goods Yard), a new running crossover from UC to UM has been installed near the bottom just before these lines curve left to pass under the Up Goods. This is so that Up trains to Moorgate will be able to use either the existing US or 'new' US2 platforms.
North of the station (beside the site of Finsbury Park Carr.Sdgs.), the Up Goods-Up Slow running crossover (essential from the early GN suburban electrification times when the UG from here to Holloway was not overhead-'wired', and was still needed for trains ex Hornsey Depot destined for service from FP to Moorgate: For now until scheme completion, these must now have to use the points back at Harringay instead) has been removed and re-laid the other way round, to be an US-UG crossover (will end up as US No.1 - US No.2) in parallel with the existing Up Fast-US crossover. This will mean passenger trains approaching on the existing Up Slow will be able to use either of the Up Slows' platforms.


Now, about the up side platform works at Alexandra Palace station (formerly Wood Green : Not the 'proper' Alexandra Palace station :) ), from what can be seen from passing non-stop trains I still find it puzzling as to what the final arrangements will be.

You'll probably recall that the mid-'70s layout remodelling and simplification here saw the Up Branch through the station abolished, and closure and demolition of the old platforms 1-2 island, for the Up Branch and the east side face for the Up Slow, leaving only the modernised other island to serve the US and Up Fast.

Well the Up Fast platform was taken out of use weeks ago and I think, 'de-edged'.
I had heard from 'inside' that there would be no restoration of an UF platform; and the plan was to narrow this island's east side, and slew the Up Slow westwards to it, leaving enough room to build the third track and create a new platform for it; on the line's east side, I believed.
This, if correct, would mean there'd then be two Up Slows with platforms, but the platforms would be entirely separate, potentially leaving southbound passengers (presumably a.m. 'peak'-time only) for Finsbury Park with a choice of either going to one platform and having to run back up and over the footbridge if their first train turns up at the other platform, or lingering on the bridge on the look-out for which one approaches first - Not too customer-friendly.

As to what I make of the works to be seen at the moment (while passing through at about 90mph), I think it looks like there is certainly some sort of alteration going on to the Up Slow/Up Fast platform island, and there is a new narrow-ish platform to the east (towards the booking office), and I think, room for a new track outside (on east side of) it, between it and the Bounds Green depot exit line (the old Up Goods line), but this platform has a permanent-looking fence along its east side, and may currently be serving the Up Slow; if so, the US/UF island may be completely out of use for the time being.

As to pointwork, additional crossovers are going in north of the station so that trains approaching on either the Up Slow or Up Hertford will be able to access either of the platform lines in the station. At the south end, more crossovers are going in to supplement the existing pointwork, and I can't get a good mental picture of the layout from flying by at speed.

It's all difficult to assess without a proper visit I'm afraid.
Last edited by StevieG on Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
BZOH

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Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

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manna
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Re: Memories

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Micky thank you for the list of DVD's I'll see if I can get them off of Amazon, or something like that.

Stevie G, Thank you for that list of works, they must be working quite quickly to have done that much, Finsbury Park seems a little confusing to me but I get the gist of whats happening. Ally Pally, wouldn't it have been easier to abolish the 'Fast/Slow Island and build a new Slow/Slow 2 island (similar to what they had 40 years ago, but with out the fast-line island ) a very strange sounding layout, thanks again. :D

manna
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oldbilly
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Re: Memories

Post by oldbilly »

brilliant post with some great memories for me as I used to train spot at hitchin station for quite a few years, when I was 17 I worked at Hitchin loco as a 2nd man around 1964/65 for about 18 months on the baby deltics, brush, english electric 1000 and the hitchin shunter, I went to the signal school at kx and remember the name Canker as it was plastered on every wall, bridge and anything that stood still between hitchin and kx.
I was lucky enough to have been paired with young driver who allowed me to take the reins from time to time and remember being allowed to take control of a big deltic light engine for a few miles between kx to peterborough one bank holiday afternoon and everything was off on the entire journey and it was fantastic to be able to have driven such an iconic loco.
I had one notable incident whilst on the peterborough goods from hitchin to hornsea a baby deltic with about 5 wagons out 30 being fitted, once we reached potters bar on the up slow and over the crest it started to speed up into the potters bar tunnel at the exit we traveling at 20+ mph with the vacume brake fully on, after clearing the 2nd tunnel we going even faster with engine brake on too! at the 3rd tunnel as I looked back from out of the window the brake blocks were glowing and looked like catherine wheels, we continued on when I noticed some of the lagging around the underside of the fuel tank had caught alight, we coasted along and gradually slowed down pulling into hornsea behind the up slow platform, I jumped out and attacked the fire with some Co2 extinquisher just as 3 fire tenders turned up to put the fire out and remember being taken to hospital for smoke inhalation.
Other jobs were the cambridge buffet, north sea gas from hitchin to ripplelane and fertiliser trains, I also when on the single line between hatfield and luton and remember the token working between signal boxes.
Mickey

Re: Memories

Post by Mickey »

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manna
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Re: Memories

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

Welcome to the forum, oldbilly,

Canker, was a KX, fireman, who was always getting into trouble (small stuff) the rest of the staff used to take the 'micky' I heard he left the railway and emigrated to Australia, wonder where he is now ??

Nice to hear, what you got up to, at Hitchin. 8)

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.
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