The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

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Solario
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The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by Solario » Sun Jun 12, 2011 2:37 pm

I wondered if anyone might be interested in seeing the motive power that was in use on a couple of weeks in 1960 contrasting with a similar period in 1964.
I have found a few notes in old school exercise books and have put them onto spreadsheets a couple of which are attached.
For those not familiar with the railways of East Yorkshire, the line heading north from Hull split at Beverley; one line going to York (no trains on Sundays) and the other to the coastal resorts of Bridlington, Filey and Scarborough. These "spottings" would be taken from the bottom of our garden in Cottingham and would not be for a complete day. Note that the shed codes have been taken from Locoshed books of 1960 & 1964 respectively and may not be entirely accurate. I have bracketed double headers in the DH column.
Loco Log.numbersT3.pdf
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Loco Log.numbersT9.pdf
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In the second spreadsheet, you will notice that I became a bit more advanced and included the train reporting numbers. Indeed I only seem to have listed certain trains and have missed local services (which would have been mainly DMUs by then).
I found quite a lot about reporting numbers on a different thread but there are one or two queries, all relating to the second (alphabetic) character. The ones that appear I have listed below with the meaning that I have deduced, can anyone confirm what I have done and fill in the blanks, please?
  • E - Eastern region
  • F - Excursion?
  • H - Hull division?
  • L - Leeds division?
  • M - London Midland region
  • N _ North Eastern region
  • X - ?
  • Z - Excursion/Special?

4493
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by 4493 » Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:52 pm

Hi Solario,

Thanks for your posting, I find such info useful, I am building a 7mm model of Nafferton station on the Hull - Brid line. Set in June 1958 (so I can run a Brid based G5 - Brid shed lost its allocation in June 58), do your notes go back that far?

It looks like I need to add a couple more D49,s to my build list, trying to build enough stock to run a summer saturday service, I have the daunting prospect of a requirement for 20+ B16s and numerous K3s - so far I have one of each!

Sorry I can't help with your reporting numbers though, but I will be interested in any replies!

Best wishes,

4493

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by v3man » Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:53 pm

In the 1961 Scottish Region working timetables X was an inter-regional special train. Whether this also applied to other regions I do not know.

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by James Brodie » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:41 am

X was for specials in the North eastern as well.
Have forgotten about F but will look it up.
Like headlamps there were local codes and national codes an ECML train The Flying Scotsman was 1A36-I think but a nondescript main line train to Scotland could shew 1S36, The Southern were allocated the letter O so they could shew 1O36
Jim Brodie

Solario
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by Solario » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:32 am

Set in June 1958 (so I can run a Brid based G5 - Brid shed lost its allocation in June 58), do your notes go back that far?
Hi 4493,
Glad that you have found this info useful. Sorry that I do not have any detailed information from any earlier than 1960 but I do have more from between 60 & 64.
From memory, there were fewer "big" engines through Cottingham in the late 50s, anything painted green was almost unknown (maybe the odd Jubilee). There were lots of D49s, K3s, B16s & B1s as you have noted. One real rarity was B12 61577 which came on an excursion to Brid in about 1958/9 and was failed. I saw it light engine through Cottingham one evening. It was repaired at Dairycoates and put to work for a few days out of Hull before returning home.
Of course, at Nafferton, you would see the trains off the Selby Driffield line and indeed a few excursions from Scotland or the North East that used the Malton & Driffield line to get to Filey Holiday Camp (avoiding reversals) although these would have ceased by 58.

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by StevieG » Tue Jun 14, 2011 12:01 am

James Brodie wrote:X was for specials in the North eastern as well.
Have forgotten about F but will look it up.
Like headlamps there were local codes and national codes an ECML train The Flying Scotsman was 1A36-I think but a nondescript main line train to Scotland could shew 1S36, The Southern were allocated the letter O so they could shew 1O36
Jim Brodie
Not sure if things were the same when the info now in Solarios' second spreadsheet applied, but the best I can recall was that, by about 1967, Solario's listed letters would have meant :

E - Eastern region (Agreed [being inter-regional with ER being the destination Region] )
H - Hull division? (Probably ; Running entirely within the 'home' Region, with destination within Hull Division)
L - Leeds division?(Probably ; -ditto-, again destination within Leeds Division)
M - London Midland region (Agreed [inter-regional with LMR being the destination Region] )
N _ North Eastern region (Agreed [-ditto-, again NER being the destination Region] )
(all the above for normal, scheduled service trains)

F - Excursion? (Specials confined to, or associated with, the ECML)
X - ? ('Special' specials [such as Royal Train carrying, or associated with workings carrying, principal Royals: Also trains with specials restrictions - usually out-of-gauge - more recently also those having to be confined with particular routeing restrictions] )
Z - Excursion/Special? (Inter-Regional trains; also engineers' on-track machines allowed on the operational railway [i.e., not just allowed to only work within engineers' possessions] )

The only British Railways Regional Destination letter for inter-regionals, not so far mentioned from that period and ever since,, is V - to Western Region.
- [ Then, much later (1987?), British Rail created the Anglia Region, which took 'L' for inter-regionals heading there.]
BZOH

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4493
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by 4493 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 11:33 am

Gents,

there was an article published in Steam World Dec 2000 about Driffield, it included a table by Neville Stead with scheduled trains for 16-7-1960. Reporting numbers are shown, usually three digit some four, just a few have a letter prefix eg,
M286 7.55 Sheffield M - Scarborough
W514 Stalybridge - Scarborough RLF (relief train?)
C223 8.5 Blackburn - Scarborough (s/back at Padiham)
C233 9.35 Sowerby Bridge - Scarborough (s/back at Ramsbottom)

There are a few M prefixes which obviously all originate on the Midland region, but what about the W from Stalybridge? and C?

This period must be on the changover from reporting numbers to headcodes?

I have photocopies of a working timetable (Hull- S/bro) for 1959 and only reporting numbers are shown, usually four figures, photos show only three figures chalked on loco smokeboxes, the first figure usually left out, either a five or two any ideas what these refered too?

Best wishes

4493

Solario
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by Solario » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:14 am

Gentlemen,

Many thanks for your information about reporting codes.

4493: sorry, I cannot throw any light on your enquiry.

Richard

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by 4493 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:32 am

Hi Solario,

Thanks for your info, I have seen photos of the B12 in Brid shed yard, you were lucky to see it.
Did you ever see any pacifics on the brid line? The largest locos I have seen photos of at Brid are V2s, apparently they were not too uncommon, I have heard rumours of an A3 once but unconfirmed. I know there were Royal workings with A4s and A1 along the Malton and Driffield occasionally.

Best wishes,

4493

Solario
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by Solario » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:39 pm

Did you ever see any pacifics on the brid line?
I saw at least one A3, 60038 Firdaussi and I have a feeling that I saw another but have no record or recollection of what it was.
I took a (poor) shot of Firdaussi at Beverley. V2s were very uncommon through Cottingham but some may have made it to Brid via Market Weighton.
There is a well documented Royal train visit to Fimber & Wetwang station on the M&DR about 1948 with A2 60534 Irish Elegance. There were occasional pacifics on the Thirsk & Malton line bringing excursions from Scotland & the North east mainly to Scarborough, whether any continued to Driffield and Bridlington I do not know, but I suspect not. There was at least two A4s recorded at Gilling on the T&M line with Ampleforth school trains.

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by 4493 » Thu Jun 16, 2011 3:19 pm

Good to know that an A3 did actually make it to (or through) Brid, though it seems the only requirement I have for a pacific is an A8 tank!

Cheers,

4493

Solario
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by Solario » Fri Jun 17, 2011 9:26 am

I should think that Brid shed would not be over pleased to have these big engines, I doubt whether their 55' turntable could accommodate either a V2 or an A3. They would have to be dispatched up the line to Filey to turn on the triangle.

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by harvester » Sat Jun 18, 2011 4:45 pm

Thanks Solario, just shows how fast times changed. The old order being swept away with indecent haste, to be replaced in many cases by "buses"with steel wheels, and not even "half cabs" at that.

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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by neilgow » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:12 am

From a 1950/60's Driffield trainspotter's point of view and memory. V2's were common on the Market Weighton line we would expect to see one or two most Saturdays and Sundays. A3's did appear and for one year both 60036 or 60038 were regular features. Later in life, I gathered this was because they had been transferred to Leeds Holbeck and were found useful employment on the weekend seaside specials. I have seen photographs of these two locomotives on the Thames-Clyde expresses working from Leeds to Scotland via the GWSR line.

As for large engines on the Malton and Driffield line, the only image I've seen was the A2 at Sledmere/Fimber. There are shots of B1's on Society trips but I would guess when the line lost its passenger traffic in 1952 little or no maintenance would have been carried out on the track. The largest engine I saw from Malton was either a J27 or J39. I never saw them in action but I understand that there was considerable limestone traffic from the Burdale quarries up to 1957 using the 0-8-0 Q6's, so I assume the northern section would have had some repairs carried out. I think that if anything big was expected from Malton we would have known about it as my friend's father was the Beverley Road signalman for many years and that box controlled movements on the line.

With regards the Thirsk/ Gilling line and summer traffic to Scarborough on Sunday evenings I would persuade father to stop at Hovingham station and see what passed. The biggest engine was a V2, mostly B1's, K3's and B16's. If nearby on other days, my Uncle would take the numbers and pass them on but never Pacifics. Normally the Malton J27 heading for Kirkby Moorside.


Rgds
NG

4493
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Re: The Hull York/Scarborough line in the Early 60s

Post by 4493 » Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:31 pm

Thanks for your observations NG
Not being around in 1958 I have to rely on published photos most of which are not dated, its interesting to note what a distorted view these give. I have always thought that up to C1960
motive power would be largely ex LNE with a good number of ex LMS types working in on excursions, however from Solario's notes it seems that LMS types were actually quite rare most of which coming from the dairycoates allocation. Would your notes from Driffield agree with this? Interesting also that V2s were quite common, you rarely see them in photos of the Brid line, do you have notes of the numbers?

Best wishes,

4493

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