Carriage Underframe Trussing

This forum is for the discussion of the locomotives, motive power, and rolling stock of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

65447
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1551
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Overlooking the GEML

Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by 65447 » Tue May 02, 2017 12:15 pm

As a rule of thumb the earlier carriage underframes with the Queen post and rod trussing to stiffen them were provided with 4 sets of trusses if vestibuled and 2 sets if non-vestibuled, save for the early steel-panelled carriages which had none.

However the articulated stock with the longer than standard spacing between bogies, and in particular the GN Quads and GE Quins which were heavily loaded (even overloaded) at peak times, probably required 4 sets of trusses rather than 2.

Is there any definitive information available regarding the actual numbers of truss rods fitted to particular carriage types?

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by JASd17 » Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm

I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?

Also see here:

http://www.nnrailway.co.uk/graphics/sto ... turn_4.JPG

This makes me lean towards 3-sets.


John

65447
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1551
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Overlooking the GEML

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by 65447 » Tue May 02, 2017 4:26 pm

Thanks John.

Looking at the upper photograph on p138 of Harris' Standard Gresley Carriages, Mallard, of a GE Quad set that also appears to have 3 sets. Since this was comprised of longer carriages it would be reasonable to assume that the GE Quins had 3 sets as well.

swhite01
NBR J36 0-6-0
Posts: 124
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:11 pm
Location: Hertfordshire

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by swhite01 » Tue May 02, 2017 9:53 pm

I have photographed Doncaster Drg 2887N 43' 41/2" Steel Underframe for Inner bodies of Quadruple Carriages. (The drawing quotes 3172N as the Inner truss rod diagram). 2887N shows the positions for 4 trussrods and the associated queen posts.

Hope this helps,

Steve

www.gnrsociety.com

jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3527
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by jwealleans » Tue May 02, 2017 10:07 pm

I wouldn't like to speculate as to how representative it is, but the revised trussing for the two dining cars in the Leeds Quint (for which I have photographed the drawing) only has two sets of trussrods.

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by JASd17 » Wed May 03, 2017 8:56 am

It appears certain diagrams had different underframe details in that case.

John

John Palmer
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by John Palmer » Wed May 03, 2017 9:04 am

Possibly also worth a look is Plate 124 of Michael Harris' GNR and ECJS Carriages from 1905 (pub. Oakwood Press), showing a GNR Quad set rebuilt to Diag. 467 from twins by Cravens. On the Third nearest the camera it's possible to discern what seems to be a central truss rod. However, I have difficulty in making out the alignment of this central rod - it seems to pitch downwards at a steeper angle than the outboard trusses, but this may be an optical illusion.

Dave
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1342
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by Dave » Wed May 03, 2017 9:58 am

65447.
Interesting question and looking forward to the answer.
I've looked through my underframe drawings and I don't have any for turnbuckle articulated stock, which is remiss of me.
What I have which does not answer your question but may be of interest is -
57'-0" u/f 2 queen posts (1912)
60'-0" u/f 4 queen posts
Triplet outer elect cooking 4 queen posts (1927)
Triplet inner " " 4 queen posts (1927)
51'-0" U/f non vest 2 queen posts (1924)

Dave

User avatar
billbedford
NBR J36 0-6-0
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by billbedford » Wed May 03, 2017 10:01 am

JASd17 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm
I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?
There would be 4 sets of truss rods, because there were two inner longitudinals, as well as solebars, where the truss rods were attached to he frames.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz

John Palmer
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by John Palmer » Wed May 03, 2017 12:27 pm

billbedford wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:01 am
JASd17 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm
I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?
There would be 4 sets of truss rods, because there were two inner longitudinals, as well as solebars, where the truss rods were attached to he frames.
My first thoughts were much the same as Bill's, but the picture referred to in LNER Standard Gresley Carriages caused me to have doubts. At page 142 of David Wragg's LNER Handbook there is a clear sideways-on shot of a quad-art on which I can see only three queen posts side by side, again suggesting a three-truss arrangement. I can't see any reason in principle why there could not be a single longitudinal frame member along the vehicle's centre line, or a closely spaced pair of such members with a truss rod sandwiched between them.

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1116
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by JASd17 » Wed May 03, 2017 9:05 pm

Perhaps a 'centre' truss was off-set on one or other of the inner frames?

Clearly, I am not certain on this. But surely this is possible to resolve in time. Hi Dave!

John

65447
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1551
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:44 pm
Location: Overlooking the GEML

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by 65447 » Thu May 04, 2017 8:19 am

Thank you all for your contributions to date; I asked the question simply because in all of the information available very little attention is paid to the underframes and to all the bits that hang from them. Even Norman Newsome's technical paper delivered to the Inst. Loco. E includes a non-vestibuled angle truss underframe GA for the later and slightly longer Thompson carriages, erroneously repeated by Michael Harris in his two books on the subject.

I look forward to an erudite and, hopefully, conclusive discussion on the topic.

jwealleans
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 3527
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:46 am

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by jwealleans » Thu May 04, 2017 9:15 am

Juts for completeness, does anyone else have a copy of the underframe drawing Mike Trice used to make available? I do, if I can locate it and from memory it's for the standard 61'6" vestibuled stock. What i can't remember is whether it's welded or turnbuckle.

Dave
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1342
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Centre of the known universe York

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by Dave » Thu May 04, 2017 9:33 am

JW.
Mikes drawing is of a turnbuckle underframe, and very good it is too.

JASd17, I too wonder how a centre truss would work, I'm sure I've seen a drawing but did not take any details at the time and can't remember how it worked.

earlswood nob
LNER A4 4-6-2 'Streak'
Posts: 1594
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:23 am
Location: Surrey

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Post by earlswood nob » Thu May 04, 2017 9:55 am

Good morning all

The Isinglass drawings of the LNER Quint shows 4 truss rods on all carriages with different height queen posts on the end units.

Earlswood nob

Post Reply