Query about a V2 tender

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drmditch
GNR C1 4-4-2
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Location: Durham

Query about a V2 tender

Post by drmditch » Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:56 pm

One of the interesting things about volunteering at Shildon is the opportunity to get close to actual detail.

I started a thread about the use of Bowden cables last year, ..here..which produced some interesting responses.

Does anybody know what these 'drop levers' (for want of a better term) on the tender front of Green Arrow are for?
Post_01.jpg
Post_02.jpg
They appear to have a ratchet mechanism on them, which doesn't show very well in the pictures.
Visibility underneath the tender isn't very good, so I couldn't work out what they are connected to.

I presume that this 'standard' LNER tender would originally have been a Darlington design, and there is a single such lever on the tender front of an NER 4,125 gallon tender in Ken Hoole's NER Locomotives page 204.

(Sorry for the poor quality mobile 'phone photograph)

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 608
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Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by john coffin » Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:10 pm

could be the water scoop operating levers. The sign above the right hand one seems to offer a clue.
I do not have any drawings of these kind of tenders, but the levers on Ivatt tenders were pretty similar.

However, could also be water valve levers, but then they would not be out of the way on when in use.

Paul

61962
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 88
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Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by 61962 » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 am

These are the injector water valves. Drop for open by lifting the pawl, lift for shut and the ratchet keeps it shut, or it can be used to regulate the water supply rather than the control handles under the seats in the cab. Was an NER design and can be seen on the Q6 for example.The last versions of the 4200 gal tender had vertical handles much the same as on the pacific tenders.

Eddie

drmditch
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 747
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:55 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by drmditch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:08 pm

john coffin wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:10 pm
could be the water scoop operating levers. The sign above the right hand one seems to offer a clue.
I'm fairly sure that the water scoop control is the vertical column with the red handle! The label 'Water Scoop' indicates that it is not the handbrake which is on the other side!

I think (but have not checked) that Green Arrow was built with LH drive, but of course there would still have been other locomotives with RH drive.
I have read stories of what could happen when the water scoop was screwed down rather than the handbrake!

drmditch
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 747
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:55 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by drmditch » Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:10 pm

61962 wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:25 am
These are the injector water valves. Drop for open by lifting the pawl, lift for shut and the ratchet keeps it shut, or it can be used to regulate the water supply rather than the control handles under the seats in the cab. Was an NER design and can be seen on the Q6 for example.The last versions of the 4200 gal tender had vertical handles much the same as on the pacific tenders.

Eddie
Thank you. I will have a closer look tomorrow, if there is time!

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by john coffin » Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:19 pm

whilst I understand your thought about the Water Scoop, it would seem to me based on my knowledge of GNR tenders with scoops, I wonder
whether a handle similar to the brake handle would get the scoop down or up fast enough.

The GNR system was a simpler lever with an up and down motion, I.E. you pulled it toward the loco to bring the scoop down and push it back
to lift it up. My understanding of the use of troughs is that there was not too much room to allow for a screw thread to operate.

But as with all these things, happy to be proven wrong.

Paul

61962
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:20 pm

Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by 61962 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 12:04 am

I wonder
whether a handle similar to the brake handle would get the scoop down or up fast enough
The scoop operating screw had a double start thread which would drop the scoop quickly. It was unlikely to be operated by mistake as it needed the latch releasing before it could be dropped, whereas the hand brake had no obstruction to its operation.

The GNR lever operated scoop relied on a clever balancing mechanism to reduce the forces pulling the scoop down into the water and probably required an amount of brute force to get it out. It is significant that after the original eight wheeled tenders, subsequent versions had screw operated scoops, probably because of the higher speeds at which the pacifics were running.

Eddie

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by john coffin » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:57 am

happy to have the new information and understand the point.

However, with reference to the GNR scoop gear on 6 wheelers, the return is based on a heavy duty balance weight which is designed so that
returning the scoop to up is always the default setting, so I agree it was pretty important to need the muscles of a skilled fireman rather than
a young guy with little experience. Of course the real skill is letting it off at the correct time to get it out of the trough at the right place.

I can certainly see how a double thread screw can make this whole process much easier and quicker. But do not forget that the Ivatt gear
the GNR used was introduced not long after the first troughs on the ECML, and only experience could have lead to improvements.

Interesting to understand new things that one has not considered before.

Paul

61962
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 88
Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:20 pm

Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by 61962 » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:12 am

I've now had time to look again at the drawing for the GN 3500 gallon tender.( Doncaster drawing No R57). The lever scoop mechanism is not aided by a balance weight. An ingenious device was incorporated in the scoop whereby a cylinder and piston was arranged to help raise the scoop using the pressure of the water in the scoop pipe.

Sadly neither of the preserved atlantics have the 3500 gallon tender and neither are scoop fitted so the only record is the drawing.

Eddie

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 608
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Re: Query about a V2 tender

Post by john coffin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:33 am

Well Eddie,
certainly on R39, there is a balance weight, and since that is specified as the scoop drawing for converting older Stirling
tenders, it stuck in my head.

10 minutes later.
Eddie, I suggest you check again on R57, the copy I have clearly shows a balance weight at the front of the tender by the vacuum
cylinder. Its position has only moved forward from that on R39.If you look around the vacuum cylinder pipes, you can see a long lever
hanging down from a pivot, towards the front of the tender. This lever is pivoted on a bracket, and going forward you can see, I admit,
a vague piece of round metal, with bolts holding it to the lever then going up to the lever in front of the coal plate.

Trust me, I spent an awful long time studying these drawings and asking Malcolm Crawley questions about how things hung together,
since he worked in the Doncaster Drawing office during the 50's after his training.
Paul

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