West Riding Pullman Coach types, names and/or numbers

[JASd17]

Graeme,

For the purposes of this site:

The Halifax portion contained TWO 12-wheeled Cars. Stop. Example numbers/names were given. Not a formation of four.

With regard to C1 4-4-2s, they were used until the Yorkshire Pullman started.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks again John. Now, which of my local retailers might be able to help with the 12 wheeler brake vans?
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Again I thought I wouldn't be banging on again about this topic but inadvertently the Pullman Society's details popped up on my address file and I threw the same question at them about the numbers/names of the 7 car set that made up the 1928 WRP set.

A very full reply came back specifying the June 1928 set as comprising 6 Kitchen coaches (3 being 12 wheeled 3rd class numbers 49, 45 & 51 and 1 x 8 wheeled No 54 and 2 X 8 wheel 1st Kitchen IOLANTHE & FORTUNA, plus a 12 wheel Brake CAMBRIA. (It also showed the formation details for the 8 car sets for the May 1926 and August 1927 WRP). Interestingly enough it differed from my original 'bible', LNER Passenger Trains and Formations 1923-68 in listing just the 1 Brake (CAMBRIA) whereas the 1923-68 formation book noted both a 3rd Brake and a 1st Brake but I realise this could have been any other running of the WRP in 1928 using 'reserve' cars, not the specified Pullman Society's June 1928 set.

Acknowledgement was given to Antony Ford (and I have all 3 of his books on Pullman coaches); Gerry Young, Doug Lindsay; M W Earley and R W Airy, plus 4 publications and 'real' photos. The Pullman Society permit 'sharing' of their information but my skills do not extend to attaching their 5 page reply to this posting. However, if of interest to Forum members I could scan and send direct or I'm sure the Pullman Society would also send this direct if preferred.

But for my modelling purposes, acquisition of 12 wheel cars, 3 kitchen and 1 Brake ito renumber/rename as above (at a reasonable price!) is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack.

Maybe this will be the end of my quest (here's hoping anyway!).

Graeme
New Zealand

[JASd17]

Graeme,

Remember, What you want requires a different livery for the Pullman cars. A cream top to the sides. Brake Cars will be different too.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks for that too John. I was aware of some variations of this sort (and even wondered if the emblem on the RTR Hornby coaches needed to be changed) so will get back to my various Pullman books for more details.
Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Chance this may have been sent inadvertently but I have a related question concerning locos that pulled the WRP.

I understand that (mainly) C1s and C2s did the job in the comparatively short life of the West Riding Pullman and then (generally) superseded by A1/3s until the expresses last run in September 1935 before it became the Yorkshire Pullman. I have some photos from Yeadons 'Named Trains on LNER Lines Part 1' of C1 & C7s but no photos or detail of any sort regarding A1/3s.

Is anybody able to provide me with links showing shots of any A1/3s doing the job or even a list of names/numbers of this class. (Also do I understand it correctly that the WRP loco headboard was not used until 1932 which may be when the Pacifics were used).

Thanks all.
Graeme Leary

[Graeme Leary]

Further research (allowed by getting some more information) to my own query yesterday asking about A1/3s that might have pulled the WRP I presume the following 2 are the same:-

From RCTS 2A, p78:
'Another special working, undertaken by No 4474 on 15th May 1930 was to Leeds on the 4-45pm Pullman ex King's Cross returning the next morning with the up Pullman. This was the first use of a Pacific from King's Cross to Leeds' and:-

From Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Tracks Part 1' p111:
There was one exceptional and noteworthy instance of haulage on the non-stop running. On Thursday 15th May 1930, the Down train had special permission from the Chief Civil Engineer to be hauled through to Leeds by a Pacific and No 4474 of King's Cross shed was used'.

(Neither reference mentions loco name but 4474 would be 'Victor Wild').

These are no doubt one and the same working (which I'd be happy to have confirmed) but if there is any further information on any other A1/3s that may have been used I'd be very grateful.

Graeme Leary

[Graeme Leary]

Further to my own last posting regarding A1/3s that may have worked the WRP after or in conjunction with Atlantics before it became the Yorkshire Pullman - I was discussing this yesterday with an ex spotter from (mainly I think) Doncaster and Leeds during the 50s and he suggested that any A1/3s that were allocated to either Kings Cross or Copley Hill during this period could have well worked the WRP.

Going through RCTS 2a, appendix D there are 10 locos that were allocated to Kings Cross between 3/23 & 3/29 and there at end of the WRP in September 1935 before being transferred to a range of other sheds. If I've read the Allocations correctly they were:-

4472 - Flying Scotsman from 4/28 to 3/39 (then to Doncaster);
4474 - Victor Wild from 3/23 to 9/37 (to Copley Hill);
4475 - Flying Fox from 4/23 to 6/40 (to New England);
4476 - Royal Lancer from 4/28 (to New England);
2546 - Donovan from 6/28 (to Neasdon);
2547 - Doncaster from 4/28 (to Doncaster);
2561 - Minoru from 3/27 to 6/40 (to New England);
2744 - Grand Parade from 8/28 to 7/37 (to Haymarket);
2746 - Fairway from 8/28 to 11/36 (to Gateshead)
2750 - Papyrus from 3/29 to 8/37 (to Haymarket)

Does this hypothesis seem plausible?

Many thanks again (and these naff questions could well be asked on 'The Chase' - should stump The Governess!)
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[4812]

A glimpse of Pullman workings can be found online in a silent 1930 Glengarry newsreel, one of the free offerings from the BFI archives, at https://player.bfi.org.uk/free/film/wat ... 930-online. The Pullman interest starts at about 15m25s with the appearance of an A1 on a 7-car set, and that is followed by the set with an A2. Harrogate seems a likely location. These gems are preceded by coverage of the LMS centenary celebrations, which included No 10000. The print quality is unfortunately not very good, and the resolution is made worse if you try to freeze a frame, but it's the only cine I've seen showing an A2.

[JASd17]

I have some spotting records from mid 1934 to the end of the West Riding Pullman in September 1935, there is not a single instance of an A1 or an A3 hauling the train south of Leeds. They can be found hauling Pullman Cars on race specials to Newmarket.

Both the West Riding and Queen of Scots were C1 hauled south of Leeds, with very few exceptions. King's Cross and Copley Hill provided the locomotives.

This situation changed with the introduction of the Yorkshire Pullman.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks mick and John. Regrettably the Glengarry clip cannot be shown outside the UK (but I will investigate ways around that) and once again I think my source of info that A1/3s worked out of Leeds to Kings Cross was somewhat flawed. Your comments John should put this matter to rest (and your posting early in October alluded to this then as well).

Off on a slightly different tack, there is a shot in Steve Banks 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formations 1923-67' on p177 of WRP behind C1 4444 in/about 1932.. The caption has some info on the last 2 or 3 cars but I'd be interested if anyone might know details of the other cars in that 1932 WRP set eg 12 wheels/8 wheels, kitchen/parlours, names/numbers etc. Not that obvious to me in an elongated shot looking down the train at an angle.

Graeme

[JASd17]

A further note on the locos hauling the West Riding Pullman. In a 1935 issue of the Railway Magazine R A H Weight states that Copley Hill locos generally only worked the Queen of Scots Pullman south of Leeds, which means the WRP was usually hauled by King's Cross C1s. This is confirmed by the spotting records I have from this era.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Morning all and thanks for latest input.

Don't think I've quoted it previously but in Steve Banks 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formation' on p176/7 after the reference to C7s between Newcastle and Leeds he says 'and 'Pacifics' did not take over until around 1934 when the train was observed arriving at Leeds Central with 6 cars behind A3 Bayardo (HEA)' - ie Heaton but no mention of Kings Cross or Copley Hill as suggested in my earlier posting. It goes on to say it left for London behind C1 No. 3300 but this reference to Pacifics in general and 'Bayardo' in particular is what prompted my query.

Another can of worms opened I fear.

Graeme Leary

[JASd17]

Not a can of worms at all. Tyneside Pacifics could work into Leeds Central and return.

But they were not allowed into Leeds from the south regularly until September 1935, is my understanding.

John

[Graeme Leary]

Ah ha John, that finally makes sense (to me anyway). RCTS 2a tells me Bayardo/2578 was shedded at Heaton at the time Steve Banks quotes (1934) so I can now see the WRP (with the loco carrying the express headboard) coming into Leeds from the north. I therefore think my quest is now complete.

(The only angst for me though is that it ran with a GNR tender for its whole working life and the model I have to adapt has a corridor tender - this might just have to be my 'modeller's license' until/unless I can obtain a 2nd hand GNR tender to depict the loco correctly).

Much appreciated everyone who's passed on information regarding anything to do with the WRP.

Graeme