Domes on A3s

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Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Domes on A3s

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:13 am

I note in RCTS 2A (p44) that 38 A3s were constructed with round domes (Diagram 94HP) and 72 with banjo domes (HP94A). There is further information concerning interchangeability and some locos that only ever had one or the other (but not both) types.

Is there a list of which of the class had the round and which had banjo domes when first built? I'm specifically interested in which diagram domes 'Bayardo'/2578 and 'Victor Wild'/4474 had in 1930 and the dates on the Summary sheet showing when each of these had boiler changes (Bayardo to HP in 5/28) and Victor Wild to HP in 10/42 would suggest to me they both had HP94A/banjo when first built. Probably bleedin' obvious but confirmation greatly appreciated.

Many thanks,
Graeme Leary

Woodcock29
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by Woodcock29 » Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:30 am

Hi Graeme
In your comments above you seem to be mixing up boilers with locomotives. A lot more boilers were built than locomotives as boilers were condemned long before locomotives, so locomotives needed new replacement boilers and of course boilers also got switched around between locomotives during overhaul. There were only 79 A1s/A3s actually built.

The first locomotives with the banjo dome were the 9 in the Windsor Lad series built 1934-35 - these were built as A3s (the final series of locomotives built), as were the preceding 18 but these had round domes when built (built 1928-30). The domes on the Windsor Lad series were the only true banjo domes as those boilers built after that had streamlined domes where the sides were flat tapering to the rear, rather than the banjo shape (10 later boilers built under Thomson's reign did have round domes).

All earlier locomotives were built as A1s with 180 psi boilers and of course had round domes - these were distinguishable by not having the superheater covers on the rear of the smokebox behind and below the chimney. All A1s, other than Great Northern, were eventually rebuilt to A3s with the 220 psi boiler.

Both Bayardo and Victor Wild were originally A1s so had round dome when built and even though Bayardo was rebuilt as an A3 in May 1928 neither the banjo or streamlined dome would have been fitted as these were not introduced until 1934 and after. Victor Wild was not rebuilt until Oct 1942.

I trust this all makes sense.

Andrew Emmett

jwealleans
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by jwealleans » Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:12 am

Andrew has it right. Hornby seem to have a bit of a thing for the streamlined dome as every one of the A3's I've worked up for Grantham has had to have one removed and a round one substituted. Mr. King of this parish does a very good resin replacement.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Feb 02, 2018 7:38 pm

Very many thanks Andrew and jwealleans - answers my query very nicely (so, in my case, look for a round dome model).
Graeme

4812
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by 4812 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:03 pm

Weren't there 2 varieties of cover for the 'banjo dome' - the early one which had a round dome with a fat tail, and the later which had the plan of a violin case, with straight sides?

mick b
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by mick b » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:47 pm

4812 wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:03 pm
Weren't there 2 varieties of cover for the 'banjo dome' - the early one which had a round dome with a fat tail, and the later which had the plan of a violin case, with straight sides?
1. is the Banjo Dome

2. is the Streamlined Dome

Woodcock29
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by Woodcock29 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:41 pm

4812 - see second paragraph of my post above
Andrew

4812
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by 4812 » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:19 pm

Thank you Andrew. The banjos must have been replaced quite quickly, and it was odd that Triang chose to put one on its A3 moulding.

JJC
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by JJC » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:03 pm

Regarding the banjo / streamline dome. What you see is only a cladding cover, so was the change in its shape caused by a design change to the actual dome on the boiler or was it only the cover that was altered? ( I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was only the cover that changed and the reason was to cut manufacturing costs )

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Norton Wood
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by Norton Wood » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:58 am

Hi,

Out of interest, when did 2500 Windsor lad or most of the early A3's fitted with 'Banjo Dome's get them replaced to the Streamlined variation?

Thank you
Tom

65447
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by 65447 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 9:21 am

JJC wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:03 pm
Regarding the banjo / streamline dome. What you see is only a cladding cover, so was the change in its shape caused by a design change to the actual dome on the boiler or was it only the cover that was altered? ( I seem to remember reading somewhere that it was only the cover that changed and the reason was to cut manufacturing costs )
It appears that it was only the cover that was altered. Spencer's Paper on LNER Locomotive Design only refers to one type of steam collector being fitted to all of the A3 class; the accompanying photographs of the steam collector itself do show the 'banjo' outline.

P18.jpg
Edit: on reading in more detail the RCTS 'greenie' (Part 2A) it appears that - surprise, surprise - Thompson did not like the Gresley steam collector and reverted to the round type for boilers constructed from 1944 (pages 29 and 44). The history of and extensive variations between the boiler types, specific fittings and batches is clearly very complex!

Presumably the V2s have a place in this too...
Last edited by 65447 on Fri Apr 17, 2020 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

52A
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by 52A » Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:24 am

60091 had a round dome to the end.

65447
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by 65447 » Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:12 pm

52A wrote:
Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:24 am
60091 had a round dome to the end.
Ergo a non-standard boiler?

Tim Watson
NER J27 0-6-0
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Re: Domes on A3s

Post by Tim Watson » Thu Apr 16, 2020 7:11 pm

My 3.5” gauge A3 had an incorrect streamlined dome for period and choice of name.
Image

I therefore fettled and fitted a more correct banjo dome, as this engine will become 2502, “Hyperion”. The cab and firebox have also received a lot of attention in the last week or so.
Image
Image

Tim

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