Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

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nutford
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Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by nutford » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:05 pm

I'm modelling a section of the old Leeds Northern line, including Ripon, around 1930.

Now I know that predominantly the locos would have been ex-NER types, but from time to time there would have been diversions from the ECML which ran parallel. (If diverted through Harrogate you could join the ECML north of Ripon, via a line from Melmerby to Thirsk, or continue up the LN to Northallerton to join it there. A very useful route, and one of the reasons that Railtrack are quite keen to re-open it... )

My question is - if trains were diverted through Harrogate and Ripon, what locos would have been used? On the face of it, would seem daft to change the loco just for that short trip on ex-NER metals and then presumably change it back again, nor would there probably have been enough suitable NER locos lying about around Harrogate to do it. But were non-NER locos from the ECML, eg GNR locos, allowed up the LN? I believe that a couple of GNR Atlantics found their way to York shed, but I think these were really for working in a southerly direction.

Anybody know - or able to have an educated guess?

Thanks for any advice!

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sawdust
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by sawdust » Sat Aug 25, 2018 9:09 am

Wouldn't it make more sense for diverted trains to rejoin the ECML at Northallerton? If you look on a map the line from Melmerby forms the bottom of a right angled triangle with the Leeds Northern being the hypotenuse. The last occasion trains were diverted being after the crash involving DP2.

Sawdust.

nutford
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by nutford » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:24 pm

Sawdust - yes indeed, depending on where the problem was. The ECML was quadrupled, so they might have been switched back to that at the earliest opportunity - ie. Thirsk - instead of the shortest overall route which would indeed have been to rejoin at Northallerton, as they indeed did as you mention..

But it wouldn't matter greatly to me, as they would still have passed through Ripon.

nutford
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by nutford » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:47 am

Sawdust - Please don't think I'm not paying attention, as I did reply to your post, but for some reason the board moderator hasn't yet published it - no idea why, since all it did was essentially agree with you. Maybe they are having Bank Holiday weekend off lol!

However, there may have been exceptions. Once on the Leeds Northern, the shortest route north was indeed through Northallerton, and as you say that was used as a diversion - the day after the line was officially closed! (BR in a fit of pique then deliberately blew up one of the bridges, so they could never have the embarrassment of being made to use the 'unnecessary' line again...).

However, while the ECML had been quadrupled, the LN was only double track, and there were no loops or passing places. So if diverting ECML traffic it may have been desirable to send at least some up the Melmerby-Thirsk route to ease congestion, and get them back onto the ECML at the earliest opportunity. From my point of view it doesn't matter - either way they went through Ripon :)

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by JonBates » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:41 pm

There was a “census” of trains seen on one day at Ripon in 1931 - this was published in Railways of Harrogate (vol 1 I think). I can dig that out if it is of help - it details the loco type, loco number, train type and number of carriages/ wagons.
“Unfortunately” (for your question) it is full of ex NER types plus a Sentinel shunter and a trio of A1s!

I did read somewhere (Banks and Carter probably) that some through trains from the south occasionally had GN types as far as Ripon (K2 and C1) although this may have only applied when the KX to Harrogate services were extended to Ripon. These would be substitutes for the NER 4-4-0 types normally used.

I’m working towards a model of Bilton Junction - so just a bit further south than you.

Jon

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by 52D » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:06 pm

Jon are you aware there was another Bilton Junction a couple of hundred miles North. The junction for the Alnwick branch was formerley Bilton junction before being renamed Alnmouth.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by nutford » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:42 pm

JonBates - yes, I have that census, it was done by ken Hoole and is a wealth of treasure, giving every train, loco and number, number of carriages....

And yes, it's all NER types, with a sprinkling of LNER standards.

It's pretty clear that as a norm, that was what ran. And the chances of discovering what ACTUALLY ran on any day there was an ECML diversion are, pretty much, nil. But then I'm not truthfully sure what ran on that section of the ECML either - would that have seen GNR or any other types, or just NER as well....

Which is why I tried to work out logically what they would have done, but don't know enough about LNER practices and route restrictions to make sense of it. Not least, I'm not sure how rigid the sections were when it came to locos. According to BRdatabase, at least one GNR C1 (2877) found itself at the ex NER York shed between 1923 and 1936. If so - well it had to be running on NER metals, as otherwise it couldn't go anywhere! So where did it go......be good to have one just be fun, especially as there's a very nice model of one!

It's just I'm not a loco kit builder - well sticking a body on a RTR chassis, yes, if that were an option, but it isn't; and making up my own chassis/motor/ wheels would lead to disaster. And there are only so many J72s, A1s, J39s, A3s, D49s, the odd Q6 and a few others that I'd be comfy with. Since ultimately the layout could do with as many as 18 locos, just be really nice to have a wider choice.... the Bachmann G5 eagerly awaited! (And yes I do have a NuCast Sentinel kit, and a Dapol Y3, which definitely DID run through Ripon at the time).

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by JonBates » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:07 pm

I wasn’t aware of two Bilton junctions but, now that I think about it, it probably explains something. I’ve seen some photos that show trains at Bilton Junction - but it doesn’t look like the Junction that I know! You may have solved that mystery so thank you.

To avoid any confusion I will try to remember to say Bilton Junction near Harrogate in future.(or something similar)

Jon

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sawdust
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by sawdust » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:32 am

My understanding is, that it was the quadrupling of the ECML by BR that then enabled the LN to be closed.

Sawdust.

nutford
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by nutford » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:25 am

sawdust - not quite, but thank you, because the point you make is valid for my layout.

It was done (I believe) in 1942, so although ultimately it would have been a major factor in the line's closure, that was still many years away.

However, I had thought it was earlier than that for some reason - clearly it's not going to affect my 1930 layout! So diverting straight up to Northallerton would have been the sensible option (perhaps with the possibility of some trains routed via Thirsk if the line became too congested, though since the bottle-neck would probably have been at Ripon which couldn't be avoided, that wouldn't have helped much).

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by 52D » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:18 pm

JonBates wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:07 pm
I wasn’t aware of two Bilton junctions but, now that I think about it, it probably explains something. I’ve seen some photos that show trains at Bilton Junction - but it doesn’t look like the Junction that I know! You may have solved that mystery so thank you.

To avoid any confusion I will try to remember to say Bilton Junction near Harrogate in future.(or something similar)

Jon
any Bilton pics you are unsure of run them past me.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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sawdust
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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by sawdust » Wed Aug 29, 2018 6:46 pm

My question is this, are you using the name Bilton junction to refer to the triangle as a whole or just one third of it?

I ask because I'm sure I've seen references to Dragon junction which could just refer to the part of the triangle closest to Harrogate station.

For those that don't know the Dragon was public house that pre-dates much of modern Bilton. (This caused a very young me to be disappointed, when visiting an aunt by bus and my mother asked for "one past the dragon". I looked very hard out of the bus but didn't see a real dragon anywhere.)

Later on I had a grandmother live near to the southern most point of the triangle, although the line was lifted by then, the signal box was still in use and there was a wooden bracket signal with two dolls on it still. A few years later the cabin head gone as had the bracket signal which had one of the dolls sawn off first.

Sawdust.

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Re: Would GNR locos have run on the Leeds Northern...

Post by JonBates » Wed Aug 29, 2018 7:57 pm

I’m referring to the Northern “point” of the triangle and also a few yards further north to the Gas Works interchange sidings. The signal box was called Bilton Junction.

The era that I have chosen is late 1930s. - 1938 (ish!)

Jon

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