Cross-London Transfer Freights

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Mickey
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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Wed May 08, 2019 8:48 am

Not a cross-London transfer freight working but for an Eastern Region train crew an interesting train working diagram at Stratford MPD during 1979 was a ECS working from the Eastern Region possibly starting from Stratford but I can't remember now exactly where the train started from but it was usually diagrammed for a class 31 loco hauling a rake of EMUs in tow for the LMR at Wolverton works. The train travelled across the North London line from Stratford as far as Primrose Hill where it joined the WCML for a run along the Down slow line to Wolverton works near Milton Keynes some 50 miles from Euston. On arrival at Wolverton the secondman (fireman) would get off the loco and nip up Wolverton box which was situated along side the Down fast line to make a can of tea. The box by that time had been reduced to a 'Ground Frame' status although the box still had a fairly large LNWR 'stirrup lever frame' that controlled a number of points and ground signals although the connections with the fast and slow lines were slotted or released with Bletchley PSB.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Wed May 08, 2019 1:37 pm

An inter-regional freight diagram that I remember when I was at Kings Cross loco as a secondman (fireman) circa 1974/75 was a job of relieving a train crew off a Freightliner at Finsbury Park station with the train possibly originating from Leeds Freightliner Depot and destined for Willesden Freightliner Depot on the LMR. The motive power was always a Brush class 47 and the train concerned would arrive at Finsbury Park station and draw to a stop in the Up slow line platform where there was a quick crew change before the driver would get the right away from the guard who had climbed in the back cab and away we would go via Finsbury Park No.4 then via Finsbury Park No.1 and on towards the LMR and the North London line via Canonbury Junction to Eastern Junction at Dalston where the train would stop and then the guard would un-hook the loco from the train and the loco would then run/round it's train between Eastern & Western Junctions boxes before setting off again towards Willesden Freightliner and running back across the North London line via Canonbury Junction, Highbury, Camden Road and Primrose Hill and then a few miles run along the WCML to Willesden Freightliner Depot.

I believe it was on this job one day that after we had run/round the loco between Eastern & Western Junction boxes the guard had found that a metal pressurised Double Diamond beer keg/barrel was leaking a nice drop of the stuff onto the track which suffice to say we didn't like to see go to waste so out went the tea from the tea can and the guards tea can and both tea cans were re-filled with nice drop of Double Diamond beer instead.

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Re: Cross-London freights to london docks

Post by rockinjohn » Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am

Mickey wrote:
Sun May 05, 2019 5:14 am
Responding to your post rockingjohn on cross London freight workings It went on well into the B.R. era.

When I was a secondman (fireman) at Stratford during 1979 there was a number of cross London freight diagrams still in operation at Stratford at that time and a couple that I remember was the Ilford milk depot to Clapham Junction job with the milk being carried in short wheel base milk tanks with the empties originating at Ilford milk depot beside the GE main line and then they went via North London line at Stratford the West London line at Willesden High level and then down towards Clapham Junction through Kensington Olympia to Clapham Junction on the southern region with the full milk tanks being worked back to Ilford milk depot back across the West London line and the North London back to Ilford beside the GE main line. Also there was a 'Bricklayers Arms job' I remember with usually a lengthy train of parcel vans possibly starting from Temple Mills (I can't remember now?) that went across the North London line, West London line then pass Latchmere Junction and Longhedge Junction on the southern region and around the South London lines eventually arriving in the big but by 1979 near deserted Bricklayers Arms depot and former loco shed area. Also there was still the 'Poplar Goods' a loose coupled train that ran during the weekday mornings from Temple Mills to Poplar docks and return via Victoria Park and pass the site of the old Devon's Road loco shed which in 1979 was a vast empty area of land. All those diagrams were worked by Brush class 31s.
Hi mickey would you know about the "London Docks"branch &the many yards in the Fenchurch St approaches area,who serviced them &from where did they start did Stratford or Devons Rd supply the shunters?& was it all trip workings?Rgds jj

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by WTTReprinter » Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm

It depends on the era but I have WTTs from the 30's & 50's and show similar flows (the old company segregation continued well into nationalisation.) There was a variety of traffic serving these yards;
GN traffic from East Yard via Canonbury & Old Ford to Mint Street.
LM traffic from Camden via Canonbury & Old Ford Hayden Square.
GE traffic from Temple Mills via Stratford and Bow Road to East Smithfield, plus
LTS local traffic to Commercial Rd.
There was also traffic between the Midland at Upper Holloway and GE at Temple Mills to and from and Poplar/Millwall Docks via Sth Tottenham, Temple Mills & Bow Road, as well as the traffic from Devons Road, Camden, Acton, Willesden & East Goods to Poplar via Canonbury & Old Ford.
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Re: Cross-London freights to london docks

Post by Mickey » Thu May 30, 2019 7:30 pm

rockinjohn wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 9:49 am
Hi mickey would you know about the "London Docks"branch &the many yards in the Fenchurch St approaches area,who serviced them &from where did they start did Stratford or Devons Rd supply the shunters?& was it all trip workings?Rgds jj
Between April & December 1979 I was a secondman at Stratford loco (I was previously a secondman at Kings Cross between 1974-75) and on a handful of occasions during that time period the summer/autumn of 1979 myself along with a Stratford driver and a Goods guard was sometimes on train diagrams that worked the 'Poplar Goods' from Temple Mills to Poplar Docks via Victoria Park where the train was run/round before heading down to Poplar Docks. The train was always worked by a Brush type 2/class 31 and usually consisted of a lengthy mixed train of box vans and bogie blosters with brake vans at either end of the train because the train had to run/round at Victoria Park before heading down towards Poplar Docks. Anyway after running round the train between Victoria Park & Old Ford we would set off for Poplar Docks which by 1979 from Old Ford on the Poplar Docks branch was by then a single line worked under 'One Engine In Steam' regulations (subsequently changed to 'One Train Working' by B.R. during the 1980s) with a train staff/token that also was partly a Annette's key to un-lock & lock the ground frame at the far end of the run/round loop at Old Ford (where once there had been a s/box). The signalman at Victoria Park would come down from the box and hand the train crew the train staff at Victoria Park s/box before running round the train anyway after departing Old Ford we would pass the former site of Bow Junction and also the former site of Devon's Road loco which as previously mentioned by me was a vast fenced off wasteland during that time anyway a bit further on heading down towards Poplar Docks I remember we passed over a big iron lattice bridge just on the approach to Poplar Docks yard where Thames lighters were tied up on the tidal reaches of the river Thames. Finally we would arrive in Poplar Docks sidings which had at a guess 8-10 roads virtually all empty and rusty roads by then (1979) as the 'Poplar Goods' was the only daily goods train to serve Poplar Docks at that time but for only one goods train a week apparently there was a small number of staff that were stationed there full-time which apparently consisted of a driver for the resident B.R. class 08 350hp diesel shunter that was kept there and also the yard still had a resident Yard Master a shunter and I heard there was also a TOPs clerk as well and of course the class 08 350hp diesel shunter that was kept at Poplar Docks was stationed there all the time unless it went back to Stratford loco for occasional re-fuelling.

At the start of 1980 I transferred back into the signalling grade and after spending 6 weeks at Ilford signalling school on the edge of east London & the Essex border I became a regular signalman at Victoria Park so for around 18 months during 1980/81 I would see the 'Poplar Goods' every weekday when it would arrive at Victoria Park and run/round it's train.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Thu May 30, 2019 9:08 pm

WTTReprinter wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 1:02 pm
There was also traffic between the Midland at Upper Holloway and GE at Temple Mills to and from and Poplar/Millwall Docks via Sth Tottenham, Temple Mills & Bow Road, as well as the traffic from Devons Road, Camden, Acton, Willesden & East Goods to Poplar via Canonbury & Old Ford.
I have been signalling around and about the Upper Holloway area for around the last 38 years now first as a regular signalman at Junction Road Junction between 1981-1985 and then regular at the then newly opened 'Portacabin' s/box at Upper Holloway in 1985 when the box opened after replacing to old mechanical Midland Railway s/boxes and have been resident at the box on three separate occasions between 1985-87 1990-92 & 2004-???? as well as being a relief signalman and resident signalman at several other s/boxes around the north London line since 1980.

Anyway with regards to the yards around the Upper Holloway area there was two yards at onetime between Upper Holloway station and Junction Road Junction firstly the LNER had a fairly large yard on the south side of the running lines which finally closed in May 1968 with this former large Goods yard area becoming an industrial estate during the 1980s through to the 2010s but it has subsequently closed in recent years and the LMS had a yard opposite on the north side of the running lines which later on in the 1970s & 1980s became a oil siding (Paraffin oil) which by then had been reduced to from memory three roads only that were fenced off behind a boundary fence that also enclosed the oil sidings as well. The Upper Holloway oil sidings finally closed around 1987 with the former oil sidings becoming a development for housing during the later 1990s but back in the early/mid 1980s there was a weekly Ripple Lane to Upper Holloway oil train (small oil tanks) and it's return working that was usually worked by a Brush type 4/class 47 being the usual locos that were employed on the diagrams. On the outward trip from Ripple Lane the train on arrival at Upper Holloway was routed into the Upper Holloway Goods loop for running/round purposes before it was crossed back over to the Down side of the line and then it propelled it's train back into the oil sidings that were situated on the Down side of the running lines but on it's return trip back to Ripple Lane it just use to depart the oil sidings and head straight back to Ripple Lane.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Fri May 31, 2019 8:10 pm

When I was a secondman at Kings Cross between 1974-75 a freight job that I use to like to be diagrammed on was a 5 link job working 9B69 Kings Cross Goods yard to Temple Mills and it's return working back to the Goods yard. The train was usually a fairly lengthy train made up of box vans, mineral wagons and bogie bolsters with a brake van at either end. The train ran on weekday mornings only from the Goods yard and was usually worked by a B.R. blue livered Brush type 2/class 31 loco one of Finsbury Park's allocation of Brush type 2s.

The train would usually depart Five Arch shunting frame in Kings Cross Goods yard around 09:30hrs and then make it's way slowly passed Goods And Mineral Junction box and under the tall North London line bridge and then on and into and through Copenhagen goods line tunnel after which it would then climb up the Holloway bank passed both Holloway South Down and Holloway North Down boxes on the Down Goods line as far as Finsbury Park No.2 box where it would stop and run/round it's train between Finsbury Park No.3 and Finsbury Park No.2 boxes. After running round it's train the train would then set off from Finsbury Park No.2 box and be routed along the Up Canonbury Goods line passed Ashburton Grove box and then passed Finsbury Park No.1 box towards the North London line and Canonbury Junction where it would pass through Canonbury tunnel before joining the London Midland region and the No.1 lines at Canonbury Junction which took it through Canonbury station and the former site of Mildmay Park station and then passed Western Junction and Eastern Junction boxes through Homerton and then passed Victoria Park box to Lee Junction and then a left-hand turn through Lee Junction and passed High Meads Junction passing Stratford Freightliner depot on the left side and the vast expanse of Stratford loco on the right side and then on passed Temple Mills East box and being routed into and on to the Goods Arrival line in Temple Mills marshalling yards finally arriving at Manor Yard box the midway point through Temple Mills marshalling yard.

The return working was along the same route as above but in reverse with another run/round being performed between Finsbury Park No.3 and Finsbury Park No.2 boxes and then on departing Finsbury Park No.2 box the train was routed off the Down Goods line at Finsbury Park No.2 and went via the Up Carriage line between Finsbury Park No.2 and Ashburton Grove boxes which then turned through a right-hand curve at a set of points and on to the rising gradient of the Up Carriage line that was more commonly as the 'Creep Up' from the bottom of the climb at Ashburton Grove box to the top of the gradient where it levelled out along side Hornsey Bridge road sidings at the top of the Holloway bank before heading down the Holloway bank (in the Up direction) passing Holloway South Up box and eventually arriving back in Kings Goods yard around 12:30-12:45hrs.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by rockinjohn » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:00 pm

Hi Mickey thanks for the reply,that paints a nice picture for me.I found "my" London docks Branch on a railway clearing house map as they call the EAST Smithfield ex GER branch, roughly a qtr mile long branch terminating in the St Kathrines Docks area,On the subject of the "other"London Docks Branch I visited this once, buildings all gone, just some sidings being shunted by an "03"the only freight being Steel on Boogie Wagons ex.South Wales poss?In days past in BR times a small ex M.R.Battery locomotive was stationed there with charging on site,To think their were GNR/LNWR&GWR &M.R?goods depots all there, a sight to behold for the railway minded, oh for a time machine, I know where I would visit!Also just found a photo of a LT Battery loco hauling a "1938"set up from the Widened Lines,thru the "X"never ever imagined they went that way to Acton Works.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by manna » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:29 pm

G'Day Gents

Well that was a nice bit of 'Time Travel' Mickey. There was so many jobs like that in the early 70's, left over steam jobs, going about there business, as if times weren't changing, but the growing dereliction, of once useful sidings made a lie of that.

Kings Cross Goods yard saw a procession of goods train arriving and leaving all around the clock, with a couple of full time shunters.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by kudu » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:54 am

Not "a small ex M R battery lcomotive", rockinjohn - THE ex MR battery locomotive! This is what I wrote for my local railway society magazine dealing with non-steam locos in the Grouping (part of a series I'm still working on covering ALL locos in the Grouping):

"The oldest [battery loco in the Grouping] was built by the Midland in 1913 at Derby using a modified wagon underframe. This elusive loco lurked in London’s West India Dock Coal Yard, a self-contained network accessed only via a wagon hoist - a parallel here with the LSWR electric locos described above. Closure of the yard in 1964 made the loco redundant."

I hope this is accurate. You must be one of the few people to have seen it.

Kudu

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:54 pm

manna wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Well that was a nice bit of 'Time Travel' Mickey. There was so many jobs like that in the early 70's, left over steam jobs, going about there business, as if times weren't changing, but the growing dereliction, of once useful sidings made a lie of that.
9B69 Kings Cross Goods yard to Temple Mills with it's associated return working I believe you was working it as a secondman manna one day back in the early 1970s and the loco (or a wagon or two?) came off the road when running round between Finsbury Park no.3 & Finsbury Park no.2 boxes?.

I use to like those few Kings Cross jobs that they had at 'the cross' back in the early/mid 1970s when in the early/mid weekday evenings you and your driver would go passenger out to Finsbury Park and then walk down to Finsbury Park diesel depot and pick up a light engine off the depot usually either a Brush type 4/class 47 or a EE type 4/class 40 and then from Finsbury Park go light engine from the diesel depot via Finsbury Park no.2 box and then head southwards along the Up Canonbury Goods line passed Ashburton Grove box to Finsbury Park no.1 box & Drayton Park L.T. and then head towards the North London line through Canonbury tunnel and then join the North London line at Canonbury Junction and head eastwards along the no.1 lines as far as Western Junction box and then onto the double-track section passed Eastern Junction box (at Dalston) through the site of the old disused Hackney and Homerton stations and on towards Victoria Park box and then down past the site of to days Hackney Wick station (that was re-opened in 1979) crossing over the river Lea bridge that had a permanent 10 or 15 mph over it and towards the nearby Lea Junction and then turn left through the junction and take the left-hand curve passed Highmeads Junction and on into Stratford Freightliner depot and hook up to a Leeds freightliner. Funny how that whole area of Stratford Freightliner depot and the immediate area around the nearby triangle of Channelsea Junction, Highmeads Junction & Lea junctions always stunk of the nearby soap factory and it really stunk back in the early/mid 1970s with the nearby river Lea almost running (slowly) white with soap powder detergent from the soap factory!.

Anyway the return journey back to Finsbury Park station was you would depart Stratford Freightliner depot around 8:00 or 9:00pm during the evening depending on what diagram that you was on and then travel the short distance out of the Freightliner depot taking the right-hand route through Highmeads Junction and around the right-hand curve through Lea Junction and then there was a short climb over the river Lea bridge that had a permanent 10 or 15 mph over it and passed to days Hackney Wick station (that was re-opened in 1979) up towards Victoria Park box and a run across the North London line passed the site of the old disused Homerton and Hackney stations then passed Eastern Junction box and re-joining the westbound no.1 lines at Western Junction box (at Dalston) as far as Canonbury Junction where your train would take the right-hand curve off the westbound no.1 lines and follow the right-hand curve around and through Canonbury tunnel (double track in those days) towards the GN passing both Drayton Park L.T. and the nearby Finsbury Park no.1 box and along the Down Canonbury line past Ashburton Grove box and immediately under the GN/LNER main line bridge taking the right-hand curve passed Finsbury Park diesel depot and Finsbury Park no.2 box and up to Finsbury Park no.3 box and on into Finsbury Park station where you would be relieved by a 'northern crew' then it was time to disappear home (or back to the Kings Cross B.R.S.A. club for a couple of pints).
Last edited by Mickey on Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by neilgow » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:27 pm

I do not know if this is of any use but i witnessed 30499 with a northbound freight through Luton on the MML during the early 60's. Until 1964 it was the only Southern loco in my Ian Allan books.

Rgds

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Pyewipe Junction » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:47 pm

kudu wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:54 am
Not "a small ex M R battery lcomotive", rockinjohn - THE ex MR battery locomotive! This is what I wrote for my local railway society magazine dealing with non-steam locos in the Grouping (part of a series I'm still working on covering ALL locos in the Grouping):

"The oldest [battery loco in the Grouping] was built by the Midland in 1913 at Derby using a modified wagon underframe. This elusive loco lurked in London’s West India Dock Coal Yard, a self-contained network accessed only via a wagon hoist - a parallel here with the LSWR electric locos described above. Closure of the yard in 1964 made the loco redundant."

I hope this is accurate. You must be one of the few people to have seen it.

Kudu
Was this service loco BEL1 (originally scheduled to have been BR number 41550)?

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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by manna » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:37 pm

Mickey wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:54 pm
manna wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:29 pm
Well that was a nice bit of 'Time Travel' Mickey. There was so many jobs like that in the early 70's, left over steam jobs, going about there business, as if times weren't changing, but the growing dereliction, of once useful sidings made a lie of that.
9B69 Kings Cross Goods yard to Temple Mills with it's associated return working I believe you was working it as a secondman manna one day back in the early 1970s and the loco (or a wagon or two?) came off the road when running round between Finsbury Park no.3 & Finsbury Park no.2 boxes?.

I use to like those few Kings Cross jobs that they had at 'the cross' back in the early/mid 1970s when in the early/mid weekday evenings you and your driver would go passenger out to Finsbury Park and then walk down to Finsbury Park diesel depot and pick up a light engine off the depot usually either a Brush type 4/class 47 or a EE type 4/class 40 and then from Finsbury Park go light engine from the diesel depot via Finsbury Park no.2 box and then head southwards along the Up Canonbury Goods line passed Ashburton Grove box to Finsbury Park no.1 box & Drayton Park L.T. and then head towards the North London line through Canonbury tunnel and then join the North London line at Canonbury Junction and head eastwards along the no.1 lines as far as Western Junction box and then onto the double-track section passed Eastern Junction box (at Dalston) through the site of the old disused Hackney and Homerton stations and on towards Victoria Park box and then down past the site of to days Hackney Wick station (that was re-opened in 1979) crossing over the river Lea bridge that had a permanent 10 or 15 mph over it and towards the nearby Lea Junction and then turn left through the junction and take the left-hand curve passed Highmeads Junction and on into Stratford Freightliner depot and hook up to a Leeds freightliner. Funny how that whole area of Stratford Freightliner depot and the immediate area around the nearby triangle of Channelsea Junction, Highmeads Junction & Lea junctions always stunk of the nearby soap factory and it really stunk back in the early/mid 1970s with the nearby river Lea almost running (slowly) white with soap powder detergent from the soap factory!.

Anyway the return journey back to Finsbury Park station was you would depart Stratford Freightliner depot around 8:00 or 9:00pm during the evening depending on what diagram that you was on and then travel the short distance out of the Freightliner depot taking the right-hand route through Highmeads Junction and around the right-hand curve through Lea Junction and then there was a short climb over the river Lea bridge that had a permanent 10 or 15 mph over it and passed to days Hackney Wick station (that was re-opened in 1979) up towards Victoria Park box and a run across the North London line passed the site of the old disused Homerton and Hackney stations then passed Eastern Junction box and re-joining the westbound no.1 lines at Western Junction box (at Dalston) as far as Canonbury Junction where your train would take the right-hand curve off the westbound no.1 lines and follow the right-hand curve around and through Canonbury tunnel (double track in those days) towards the GN passing both Drayton Park L.T. and the nearby Finsbury Park no.1 box and then past Ashburton Grove box and immediately under the GN/LNER main line bridge taking the right-hand curve passed Finsbury Park diesel depot and Finsbury Park no.2 box and up to Finsbury Park no.3 box and on into Finsbury Park station where you would be relieved by a 'northern crew' then it was time to disappear home (or back to the Kings Cross B.R.S.A. club for a couple of pints).
G'Day Gents

Exactly as I remember it, although in all the times I worked it, it was always class 47, that we picked up at Clarence Yard. With Soap smell mixed with that of the 'Perfume Factory, it made for a Heady mix, wafting around Stratford.

manna
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Re: Cross-London Transfer Freights

Post by Mickey » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:03 am

manna wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:37 pm
Exactly as I remember it, although in all the times I worked it, it was always class 47, that we picked up at Clarence Yard. With Soap smell mixed with that of the 'Perfume Factory, it made for a Heady mix, wafting around Stratford.
Your right manna I think those Stratford Freightliner to Leeds FLT jobs back in the early/mid 1970s were usually worked by Brush type 4s/class 47 locos and regarding the 'stink' in the air around Stratford Freightliner terminal and the surrounding area of Highmeads & Lea Junctions it really did stink 24/7!!. I presume nowadays it doesn't any more otherwise 'Extinction Rebellion' crowd would be 'kicking up a stink' over the air quality and nearby river pollution.

Also there was a odd looking notice (maybe provided by B.R. maybe not?) fixed either to a brick built over bridge or brick retaining wall on the approach to Eastern Junction heading westward towards Dalston that asked "Engine drivers please keep the noise down" or words to that effect possibly because of a nearby hospital or old peoples home?.

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