what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

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Nova
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what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Nova »

This is for my planned layout. Over the years I've managed to collect a number of PO wagons, though more often than not they are wagons that wouldn't be commonly seen on the ECML, coming from Wales or the west coast :?

alas there doesn't seem to be any single directory of PO companies to help me out.

I don't need a totally comprehensive list, just 2 or three different companies that would typically be seen running in block trains running between York and Doncaster. additionally some pointers towards any transfers of said wagons would be helpful.
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
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manna
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by manna »

G'day Gents

You have hit the nail on the head with this question, I know a couple of PO wagon owners that were seen on the ECML, but not as block trains, S&C (Stevenson and Clark), Woods & Co, (based at KX, and a bright yellow wagon) another was MOY, based in East Anglia, ( they seemed to be everywhere). I have another couple of small Edgware based PO wagon owners, but don't have there names to hand.

Every station had there own (almost) PO coal wagon owner but trying to find out there name and livery today is very hard.

manna
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Nova »

manna wrote:G'day Gents

You have hit the nail on the head with this question, I know a couple of PO wagon owners that were seen on the ECML, but not as block trains, S&C (Stevenson and Clark), Woods & Co, (based at KX, and a bright yellow wagon) another was MOY, based in East Anglia, ( they seemed to be everywhere). I have another couple of small Edgware based PO wagon owners, but don't have there names to hand.

Every station had there own (almost) PO coal wagon owner but trying to find out there name and livery today is very hard.

manna
Are there any books on the subject that would be of use? it's particularly for the south Yorkshire area that I need, I may simply start with a rake of Denaby wagons
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Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
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manna
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by manna »

G'day Gents

As far as I know, I haven't found any PO wagon books, there may be some, somewhere :?

manna
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Hatfield Shed »

The trouble you have is that your 'alternative history' needs to be expanded to also consider what might have happened in the coal industry. Coal through York heading south, must have originated in the North East, former territory of the North Eastern Railway, which had successfully retained most of the coal traffic in company wagons. So you might just move such coal in large efficient new LNER design bogie hoppers?

Perhaps these hauls will be branded for private customers in power generation, rather than the CEGB, we might propose 'Gainsborough Electric Power' reached via the GN and GE joint after passing Doncaster as an example; or for large scale landsale distributors (the latter much as happened with rakes of hoppers for 'Charringtons ' coming up to the London area under BR). Or collieries were bought or merged to form large groups 'Durham Consolidated', 'Tyne Union' or whatever; and they may have had fleets of wagons. The block train and merry go round system was on its way whether BR existed or not.
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Nova »

Hatfield Shed wrote:The trouble you have is that your 'alternative history' needs to be expanded to also consider what might have happened in the coal industry. Coal through York heading south, must have originated in the North East, former territory of the North Eastern Railway, which had successfully retained most of the coal traffic in company wagons. So you might just move such coal in large efficient new LNER design bogie hoppers?

Perhaps these hauls will be branded for private customers in power generation, rather than the CEGB, we might propose 'Gainsborough Electric Power' reached via the GN and GE joint after passing Doncaster as an example; or for large scale landsale distributors (the latter much as happened with rakes of hoppers for 'Charringtons ' coming up to the London area under BR). Or collieries were bought or merged to form large groups 'Durham Consolidated', 'Tyne Union' or whatever; and they may have had fleets of wagons. The block train and merry go round system was on its way whether BR existed or not.
I like the idea of "Coal Unions" similar to the railway grouping, purely because it adds simplicity whilst also keeping variety :D

would that make them nationalised in a roundabout sort of way :?: :roll:

maybe on a county-by-county or area basis? EG Yorkshire Union Collieries, Humberside Coal, Greater Lincolnshire Coal & Coke to think of only a few.

The question is what sort of liveries? county colours aren't totally out of the question, green with shaded white writing for Yorkshire Union Collieries seems rather attractive. if that doesn't work then there's always the options generally chosen by POCs

The same could apply to other forms of traffic such as iron ore, refined metals, crops, livestock, perishables, etc.

I'm also somewhat tempted to design an LNER MGR wagon based on the 21t hopper design
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Hatfield Shed »

That''s all part of your 'alternative history' to develop. One thing is for sure; if the railways are not nationalised in your scenario, most likely neither is any other industry. The effects of the war and the government input in organisation of industries in the immediate national interest in wartime however: that will have brought about changes. You may directly compare to how the WWI input by government led to the grouping of the railways, and extend that thinking to other industrial and business sectors.
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by 2512silverfox »

The PO wagons were broadly divided into several categories. By far the larger number were colliery owned wagons, followed by small factors based on particular towns or cities and finally those owned by public utilities, Electricity Companies, Gas Companies etc.,

From photographic evidence, very few similar wagons found themselves marshalled together, so the Denaby type photo was normal only seen when the colliery took delivery of a new batch. One almost has the impression that operatives in marshalling yards took pains to separate similar wagons!

Some of the London factors to be seen on the ECJM were Rose Smith & Co, Coote Warren, Judbud, E Foster & Co, and many other smaller concerns, sometimes with only one or two wagons.

Collieries were represented by wagons from most of the Yorkshire pits, some from Tyneside (i.e. Tyne Main Coal Co), Nottinghamshire (Gedling), the odd wagon from Staffordshire and Warwickshire (Birch Coppice and Kingsbury) often as a result of an order for a particular type of coal.

There are plenty of books on the subject - see the in stock list of Lightmoor for example. They also have a PDF list of owners and reference to where illustrations are published.
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Eightpot »

Was it not the case that all these private owner wagons were essentially taken over by the Government to be pooled for general use during the early part of WW2, in which case ownership liveries would have gradually disappeared?
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by 65447 »

Eightpot wrote:Was it not the case that all these private owner wagons were essentially taken over by the Government to be pooled for general use during the early part of WW2, in which case ownership liveries would have gradually disappeared?
But not in this alternate history, as made clear in the posts by 'Hatfield Shed' above...
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Greedy Boards »

Hi Nova

you might want to think about a notional junction on the ECML for your layout, with coal traffic coming in from those collieries on the east side of Leeds, as most of the coal traffic in the North Eastern and Great Central regions ran from west to east, to the coal staithes of the Tyne, Tees and Humber, including the ports of Hull, Goole, Grimsby and Immingham for coal from South and West Yorkshire. I am aware that coal from the Old Silkstone Collieries Limited, located around Dodworth near Barnsley, was supplied to the LNER locomotive sheds of Gorton and York, so you could include some of their wagons shown in Bill Hudson's PO Wagons Volume Three, with LNER loco coal wagons on your layout.

Colliery companies in the Leeds area up to nationalisation in 1947, would include the Airedale Collieries (Bill Hudson Volume Three) of Allerton Bywater, Fryston, and Wheldale, the former of which has a great image of its wagons in the 1930s, if you Google 'Twixt Aire and Calder', and you will see a massing of the companies wagons for a PR shot. In addition, you might like to consider Briggs Collieries (Keith Turton PO Wagons Second Collection), of Peckfield (Micklefield), Snydale, Water Haigh, and Whitwood/Saville. Both these companies supplied coal to North and East Yorkshire, so they could also work geographically.

As for actual mineral traffic on the ECML, this was not encouraged, and such traffic was routed along a route further to the west, through Normanton Exchange sidings, via Askern, Knottingley, Burton Salmon, and thence on to York. This included the East Midlands iron ore traffic to Teesside, as demonstrated by the Bell Brothers Limited 15 ton hopper in Bill Hudson's PO Wagons Volume Two, which would also have seen similar wagons for South Durham Iron and Steel as well. However, if you want another PO wagon, them have a look at T W Ward Limited of Sheffield, who dealt in scrap metal, and had private sidings in Middlesbrough, for the iron and steel industry (Bill Hudson PO Wagons Volume Two).

Best wishes

Greedy Boards
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Greedy Boards »

Apologies for a slight error in place names, as one route ran from Midland Railway rails to the Normanton Exchange sidings, and thence via Castleford to Burton Salmon; and the second route was based on Lanky (Lancashire & Yorkshire) rails via Askern, Knottingley, and then Burton Salmon for onward traffic to York.

Regards

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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Norton Wood »

Hi,

I am similarly finding myself asking a similar question.

I am working with my model club and are currently setting out plans to model part of the ECML, at Hitchin set in February - May 1938. I am currently working on the PDK LNER P1 kit, and have begun building a number of wagons (Notably 2 ex NER 20T Coal Hopper Wagons and 2 LNER Loco Coal Wagons) for the heavy coal trains they hauled between Peterbo' and KX. What I'd like to know is, what Coal Merchants, and by extension, PO wagons could have been seen on this section?

We've found it rather easy to find information on the expresses, but we are aware of the freight types, Fish/Coal/Meat/Fruit/Mixed etc. It's more of the composition which we're struggling with. Particularly with the P1's "100 Wagon" train.

Thanks
Tom
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by Hatfield Shed »

From long ago examination of photographs of the 1930s coal traffic on the Southern end of the ECML, one thing was very plain: a wagon factors vehicle was inevitably on view in any train of more than 20 or so wagons; S C (stephenson clarke) JR Wood, Judbud. With large characters, these are easily recognised, while an adjacent wagon with owner's title and an essay on its side, all in small lettering, may prove impossible to read or recognise unless the overall style identifies it.

Thus there is a bias toward recognition of those businesses whose title was easily read. Most prominent coal merchant probably 'Charringtons', but then they put their title on in large characters, as also did 'Russell & Co.', London, Fulton, London and Beattie, London; likewise collieries 'B.A.C', 'Brodsworth Main' (one with an attractively arched name on red oxide), B W & C (Barber Walker), D.C.A. (Doncaster Collieries Association), Dinnington Main (another attractively arched name, this time on blue), P.O.P., Wath Main.

I am sure much better research will have been done since...
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Re: what were some of the larger, more well known colliery companies whose wagons could be seen on the ECML

Post by jwealleans »

There are enough photographs, published and on the net, to get a decent idea of what was running up and down the ECML. Keith Turton's books will help you, though as his research has developed it has shown that wagons were not always routed the way you'd expect.

There are a series of photographs taken by L Hanson at Sandy in 1937, at least one of which was published in one of the LNER Album volumes which show an up mineral passing or stationary behind the main subjects of the pictures. The wagons are readily visible and repay close examination. One of the pictures shows a wagon with single side brakes and another - which may be further south - includes a South Wales wagon full of anthracite.
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