Anyone recognise this?

duncharris · Post by **duncharris** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:04 pm

Anyone recognise this?

http://web.archive.org/web/200401060533 ... rg6148.jpg

it's fairly obvious what it is, but could you help me out with (1) its date and (2) its source.

I think it's an official LNER publicity shot.

My guess it's pre-1935 as after that they'd be pushing the A4s, not the A1/A3s.

Therefore I think it's public domain, since on official photos the author is anonymous, but I'm not sure. I'd like to use it in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class ... g_Scotsman but it must be public domain in order to use it.

Cheers,

Dunc

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:58 pm

The corridor tenders were fitted in 1928 for the commencement of the non-stop running from Kings+ to Edinburgh.

That makes it 1928 to 1935.

Colombo

Post by **richard** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:25 pm

And 4472 is still an A1, so before 1947. And pre-Thompson 1943 renumbering. Not new information, but it helps reinforce the evidence.

Also no shed code or route availability info; in LNER livery but not "preserved LNER" state (cf. chimney and dome).

Richard

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:14 pm

There are lots of photos of A1s setting off from Kings + with the Flying Scotsman from 1928 to the mid 1930in LNER Reflections by Nigel Harris. These are taken from the BBC Hulton Picture Library and show 4472 in exactly the condition in the mystery photo.

The pattern of the dirt marks on the otherwise shiny buffers, could potentially tie the date of the mystery photo exactly to another dated one, but none in any of my reference books matches those in the mystery. The marks make a sort of finger print for the day.

Keep looking.

Colombo

Post by **richard** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:24 am

By coincidence the Christmas Walthers catalogue arrived this afternoon. Having purchased some bits from them years ago, it looks like I get their monthly sale catalogue until eternity!
Anyway as its a Christmas one, there are some gift type things, and there's a jigsaw of a very similar picture. This is a painting entitled "Wave at the Engineer!" (spot the American audience) and is from the left, and angled more towards the front. Train has just emerged from tunnel, and kids + dog are waving.

Anyway the engine is old No. 4472 with a "The Flying Scotsman" name board (when was 'The' added/deleted?), same (older) dome, 8 wheel tender, LNER livery, no extra numbers on the buffer beam, etc. Looks to be the older chimney, but difficult to be sure with the taller name board. Except she's (he's?) an A3!

Richard

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:55 am

May I suggest that you have a look at the following poster:

http://www.scienceandsociety.co.uk/resu ... magepos=13

The angle is the same, but the background and the position of the smokebox door handles is different.

Colombo

duncharris · Post by **duncharris** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:16 pm

Thanks

Is that the same Nigel Harris who is editor of RAIL magazine?

I think the one on the poster looks like it has the double tender and is thus post-1966.

Post by **richard** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:05 pm

It is also an A3. Look for the small covers at the front of the boiler, just behind the smokebox. There are two, one on each side near the top - one is visible (the other is on the other side).

This is the easiest way to tell an A3 from an A1. The different tube arrangement meant that some of the boilers would have poked out / coincided with the barrel. Hence the small covers.

Richard

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:35 pm

Yes, I agree it is 4472 as an A3 and the poster is dated 1968, the 40th anniversary of the first non stop run.

If the mystery photograph is over a certain age, is it out of copyright anyway? It seems to be at least 70 years old.

Colombo

duncharris · Post by **duncharris** » Tue Nov 01, 2005 10:14 pm

Copyright law is confusing, but see the copyright chart at:

http://www.museumscopyright.org.uk/private.pdf

Basically if the author is anonymous, it expires 70 years after first publication. This means that most official photographs taken by railway employees and copyrighted to the railway published in 1934 and previous are copyright expired.

If the author isn't anonymous, then it expires 70 years after the author's death. e.g. Eric Treacy died in 1978. Therefore his work won't become public domain until 1 January 2049.

That's the simple explanation, but it does get more complicated than that, particularly where like here it's difficult to identify who the author is, and therefore which it falls into.