Lea Valley Loco Mystery

This forum is for the discussion of the LNER, its constituent companies, and their histories.

Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard

03piggs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by 03piggs »

Thanks for the replies.

I found a years worth of TI issues on ebay for 1961, so will look through them when they arrive. If anyone has any Railway Observer copies around that date that they could look through, Id appreciate it.

I'll say my theory; could it be that the loco was one of the later 28xx's which had numbers in the 36xx range, as these would of shared the last 4 digits of O1's that were working out of March at the time. My theory is that (from what I understand) most controllers/yard staff used to drop the '6' when reporting a loco number, so someone could of mistaken it for an O1 but not actually seen the loco, and directed it to be put onto a Whitemoor working (to send it 'home')

As I've said, this is my theory. My guess is that we will really never know how it got there...if it did get to Harlow!

As a side note, there are photos of 28xx's at Ripple Lane, so must of been able to clear the wires and they did venture into the area.

Stuart
rockinjohn
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi Stuart, its a good thought,&from the many yards it could have happenend @, Temple Mills was a regular, sticking locos on the wrong trains & from other regions too, happily most discovered before their departure,err think you may have meant 38XX not 36XX(tank)class locos in BR times?(a typo),&yes they reached Ripple Lane along with the Stanier 2-8-0's on the oil tank empties sometimes, maybe due to an ER loco failure on the down workings.jj
TrevorJ
GER J70 0-6-0T Tram
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:46 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by TrevorJ »

03piggs wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 8:58 pm

Intresting that it was reported in Trains Illistrated. From what I read in the letter mentioned in my original post, it was early 60s, probably around 1961/62. Would anyone who has issues of this time be able to take a look?

Stu
.
I have been through my copies of Trains Illustrated for 1960 and 1961 and cannot find any mention of this event in the "Motive Power Miscellany" sections, where such would have been reported. I do not have any later copies - the magazine changed its name to "Modern Railways" from January 1962.
03piggs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by 03piggs »

hi trevor,

i had recently bought some trains illustrated mags for the year of 1961 and their was no mention of it either. i have purchased some copies of modern railways for 1962 so see what they have.

intrestingly, the november 1961 mentions a 28xx at tilbury shed.

Stu
03piggs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by 03piggs »

Hi all,

My copies of Modern Railways for 1962 arrived today and have provide the evidence that solves the mystery.

The March 1962 issue on page 206 mentions the following;

"On December 28 (1961), W.R. 2-8-0 No. 2841 (81D) penetrated as far as Harlow Mill, where it was seen in a siding. It is reported that this was the result of mistake on the L.T.S. Line, whereby a 2-10-0 and the W.R. engine were mistakenly put on each other's inter-Regional trains. We have not heard how No. 2841 regained its home territory."

Hopefully that answers a few questions.

Also means I can now excuse a 28xx on my layout now.... :D :D :D

Stu
rockinjohn
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery conclusion

Post by rockinjohn »

Hi all well thanks for that,beginning to question my memory that far back!I actually thought '59 or '62 and remembered that TI when in a bigger format embraced another publication, before changing its name to Modern Railways &think once that occurred reports of region sightings reduced a fair bit, well Burnt Mill an area of Harlow & the station actually was re-sited from the orig. GER position.Good Detective work Stuart,jj
69530
NER Y7 0-4-0T
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by 69530 »

I too remember reading about a 28xx at burnt mill at this time, and saw both 9401 and 72009 at work. About 1959/60 after school I would often cycle to Northumberland Park Station for an hour or two, the gates closed and a train approached fom Tottenham Hale as it neared I realised it was a Fowler 2-6-4 fom Kentish Town, sadly I cannot recall the number but presumably had been borrowed by 30a due to the chronic problems there due to modernisation.

I also remember seeing in 30a about the same time a J15 I think it was 65460 with both loco and tender lined out in a single red line, I believe for filming purposes on the Buntingford branch.

Has anyone else memories or pictures of these events ?
Hatfield Shed
LNER A3 4-6-2
Posts: 1419
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by Hatfield Shed »

03piggs wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:38 pm ...Hopefully that answers a few questions...
And begs some more. Two most obvious:

How were a GE section footplate crew persuaded to take out a right hand drive loco?
Just whereabouts was it realised that the cylinder casings were liable to foul platforms and she had better come off the train?
rockinjohn
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by rockinjohn »

Well the first part RH drive we will possibly never answer,but the second did Temple Mills dispatch discover the error after the WR crew came looking for "their" loco & control rang ahead stopping it @ Harlow Mill(burnt)before it got any further? shades of WR Castles @Portsmouth &Southsea impounded!jj
03piggs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by 03piggs »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:54 am
03piggs wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 10:38 pm ...Hopefully that answers a few questions...
And begs some more. Two most obvious:

How were a GE section footplate crew persuaded to take out a right hand drive loco?
Just whereabouts was it realised that the cylinder casings were liable to foul platforms and she had better come off the train?
I agree.

As John says it could of been when the WR crew/region wondered where their engine was. I've since found out that the working passed through the Lea Valley at night, so maybe the 1st GE control knew that they had a GW loco on their patch is when the crew relived the Tilbury crew at Temple Mills. I doubt that any 'Bobbie' inbetween would of known it was a 28xx, as I doubt they would of been able to see the train at all!

Stu
rockinjohn
NBR D34 4-4-0 'Glen'
Posts: 271
Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 6:10 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by rockinjohn »

If the crew(ER) were a March(31B)crew they were not known for hanging about @Temple Mills without duties(any loco looks good) &if returning home light only a Brake Van journey would be quicker than "the Cushions"rafts of light engines up to 4/5locos coupled together but in steam, could be seen returning home from the smoke @ times.jj
User avatar
billbedford
LNER J39 0-6-0
Posts: 172
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 10:28 am

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by billbedford »

Hatfield Shed wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:54 am How were a GE section footplate crew persuaded to take out a right hand drive loco?
?????

All the ex-GE loco were right-hand drive. Stratford men wouldn't have seen left-hand drive locos until the B17 turned up.
Bill Bedford
Mousa Models
http://www.mousa.biz
Mickey
LNER P2 2-8-2
Posts: 958
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2019 7:27 am
Location: London

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by Mickey »

Digressing slightly from the topic thread above but following on from the last post it has always been a bit of a 'headscratcher' on how Western steam loco crews (especially drivers) driving on the right-hand side of the loco footplate managed to see and read many signals even on GWR lines that were positioned on the left-hand side of the running line in the direction that the loco was going in as opposed to being on the right-hand side of the track?. Obviously most loco crews knew (or should know) the route that they were travelling over but all the same it couldn't have been an easy task trying to observe signals that were on the left-hand side of the loco and driving from the right-hand side of the footplate especially during the hours of darkness or in poor weather conditions such as in rain and fog?.

After watching 100s of hours of black & white archive film footage from the 1950s and the first half of the 1960s of GWR locos 'in traffic and out on the road' it is amazing the amount of times a piece of archive film will show a King or a Castle or a Hall speeding past a GWR lower quadrant semaphore signal that is positioned on the left-hand side of the running line (track).
Original start date of 2010 on the LNER forum and previously posted 4500+ posts.
User avatar
thesignalman
GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:37 pm

Re: Lea Valley Loco Mystery

Post by thesignalman »

Mickey wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 10:17 am Digressing slightly from the topic thread above but following on from the last post it has always been a bit of a 'headscratcher' on how Western steam loco crews (especially drivers) driving on the right-hand side of the loco footplate managed to see and read many signals even on GWR lines that were positioned on the left-hand side of the running line in the direction that the loco was going in as opposed to being on the right-hand side of the track?. Obviously most loco crews knew (or should know) the route that they were travelling over but all the same it couldn't have been an easy task trying to observe signals that were on the left-hand side of the loco and driving from the right-hand side of the footplate especially during the hours of darkness or in poor weather conditions such as in rain and fog?.

After watching 100s of hours of black & white archive film footage from the 1950s and the first half of the 1960s of GWR locos 'in traffic and out on the road' it is amazing the amount of times a piece of archive film will show a King or a Castle or a Hall speeding past a GWR lower quadrant semaphore signal that is positioned on the left-hand side of the running line (track).
GWR engines didn't have long. large boilers - the arms would usually be visible in good time. At places of sighting difficulty, the fireman would assist.

John
"BX there, boy!"
Signalling history: https://www.signalbox.org/
Signalling and other railway photographs: https://433shop.co.uk/
03piggs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 84
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:44 pm

Re: Darlington Loco Mystery

Post by 03piggs »

Hi all,

Thanks for the replies on this topic.

Was having another flick through one of my copies of TI and found the following interesting observation;

North Eastern Region- 'Unusual sights on Darlington shed from July 14 to 17 (1959) were "B17" 4-6-0 No. 61661 and "N7" 0-6-2 tank No. 69694, which departed for the south on July 18'

I did check the N7 in my copy of Yeadons and it says that it was never at Darlington for works attention; I haven't got the Yeadon for the B17s. So would be interesting how they got there.

Stu
Post Reply