West Riding Pullman locos

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Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Sun Nov 20, 2016 3:45 am

I may have already asked this question but it seems to have disappeared off my 'sent items'.

I am interested in locating photos of locos hauling the West Riding Pullman AND carrying the express name headboard. From Yeadon's 'Named Trains of the LNER - Part 1, I have a photo of C1s 4444 and 3295 (p117) and the first is repeated in Banks and Carter's 'LNER Passenger Trains and Formations (p 177). A C1 with headboard also appears in Brian Haresnape's 'Pullman - Travelling in Style' (p 99).

I understand that C1s hauled the West Riding Pullman for most of their existence before the Express became the Yorkshire Pullman in 1935 but I'm interested in any photos of, in particular, A1/3s with the headboard doing the job. (In Banks and Carter's book there is mention of Bayardo/2578 arriving at Leeds pulling the WRP, even though it did leave for London behind C1/3300).

If anyone can direct me to any publications that might have photos of other classes (but in particular A1/3s) I'd be very grateful. As we are somewhat limited to what is available here if it was possible to post any such photos I'd be 'over the moon'.

Many thanks.
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Wed Nov 23, 2016 6:30 pm

There's no one-size-fits-all answer here, it depends on where you wish to model the "West Riding Pullman" pre-September 1935 and, indeed, how much of this multi-portion train. If we ignore the two cars from Halifax behind 0-6-2Ts in favour of the ECML and GNML journeys, 5 cars were rostered from Newcastle and we described that C7s were used with Pacifics taking over c.1934. This may have coincided with delivery of new Pacifics (a check of Heaton allocations in RCTS 2A might help). The observation in 1934 we described was of 2578 Bayardo (HEA) arriving at Leeds Central from Newcastle, with 6 cars, one more than normal.

Large Atlantics were used onwards because Leeds Central-Doncaster had not yet been cleared for Pacifics and the example we quoted was of a KX loco. The picture on p.177 with a C1 in charge near Potters Bar was dated 1932 and (I now know) was also a KX loco, so you have all its allocation to choose from. As regards the nameboard, I have 6 pictures with it being carried and 5 without.

In 1935 the WRP became the Yorkshire Pullman and the load from Doncaster rose from 7 > 10 cars. This may have been the point at which Pacifics took over from there to KX (we described how in 1936 4480 Enterprise (DON) was observed, and often used). I find it hard to believe that Pacifics would have been required earlier, even if Heaton's were used on the northern leg.

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Nov 25, 2016 4:02 am

Many thanks Steve.

I'm beginning to think I'm on to a lost cause here as my prime motivation is to rename one of my spare A1/3s to one that pulled the WRP. However, my spare models all have NT or Corridor tenders (have I got the descriptions right?) whereas I see in the Green book that just about all A1/3 were built with GNR tenders which were not replaced until after the WRP became the Yorkshire Pullman. (The fact that generally the RTR companies have offered predominantly NT/Corridor tenders means a moderately pedantic modeller like myself is 'over the barrell' - which is the reason I have added to the 'wishlist' that GNR tenders be produced for sale as 'items' for this very reason).

However, it has been suggested by an ex BR manager living here that if I could get a list of A1/3s allocated to Copley Hill, Leeds in the WPR period of running, it might be a fair bet that (subject to 'correct' tender) there may be one that would be right for what I'm trying to achieve.

Graeme

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Fri Nov 25, 2016 2:42 pm

Ahem, at the risk of repeating myself, A1/A3s on the "WRP" were off Heaton and Copley Hill didn't get any Pacifics until later. You say that you have the "green" book: it has the allocations.

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:01 pm

Oops, apologies. Just passing on comment made to me but should have checked RCTS first.
Graeme

nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by nutford » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:47 pm

I do realise this thread is over a year old, but since the poster never got the answer they wanted I have the following which I think would solve their problem.

http://topticl.zenfolio.com/p533672145/ ... #ha244908b

I tried to insert the image but don't know how, but it is captioned 'A3 2580 Shotover, Ripon 1931' and carries the WRP name boards.

I can't confirm the date, but can confirm it is definitely Ripon.

Probably too late to be any use, but you never know!

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Thanks Nutford for comments and photo link - never too late to have some more info thrown into the mix.

I finally settled on renaming/numbering a Hornby A1 model I got on my last UK trip 4474/Victor Wild (produced as Woolwinder but most importantly made with a GNR tender) as 4474 was specifically quoted in both RCTS 1A and 'Named Trains of the LNER' as a loco that hauled the WRP in the period I'm working on (1930s - both tomes even quote a specific date 15th May, 1930).

However, now that you have sent photographic evidence with dates I may just also look at adapting a 'spare' A3 I also have to Shotover/2580 - bit of research first to confirm tender types and any other relevant facts. Can't have too many of these fine beasts on a layout depicting that period.

Graeme
New Zealand

nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by nutford » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:48 pm

Glad to be of help :-)

Spent three weeks earlier this year in your beautiful South Island..... you are one lucky boy, sounds a fantastic railway AND a gorgeous place to live!

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:14 pm

Hello nutford.

Belated acknowledgement to your last and as well as your link to Shotover/2580 working the WRP I have found another shot (in 'Named Trains of LNER Part 1) of 2580, this time hauling the first Up non stop Flying Scotsman (with the Flying Scotsman headboard) leaving Waverley. This appears to be during the 1928 'season' which would suggest for the first 4 years since the Flying Scotsman's (express) inception in 1924 it did not carry the FS loco headboard.

Very pleased to have photographic evidence of the same loco working the 2 expresses that are my specific interest.

Yes, our South Island scenery is tremendous (and many parts of its central area are not unlike the Scottish Highlands which, along with Yorkshire, I've seen more of in recent years than the South Island). My Yorkshire visits have been mainly to get location ideas so my supposedly Yorkshire themed layout is as factual looking as possible.

Interested in in more links to A1/3s related to the WRP and FS expresses.

Graeme

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:43 am

PS Nutford - and 2 vg pictures of Shotover/2580 in RCTS 2A, one with a Corridor tender after the first up non-stop FS 1/5/1928 (as mentioned earlier posting), and another 'about' 1933 with GN tender.

'On a roll' now with Shotover so any further info about her (and what other expresses she may have worked) would also be of interest. As a Heaton and/or Gateshead shedded loco in the period I'm interested in I suppose she had a wide range of express workings both Up and Down.

Graeme

JonBates
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:48 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by JonBates » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:39 am

Graeme

In Volume 1 of Railways of Harrogate there is a “census” of locomotives and trains that passed through Ripon on Thursday 25th June 1931.

It shows 3 A1/A3 locos- 2569 on the up Queen of Scots, 2578 on the down Queen of Scots and 2577 on the down West Riding. The up West Riding had a C7 2196. The census gives the loco, number of carriages/ wagons and the time so I have found it a very useful aid when deciding what types of loco are required.

Sorry it’s not information about Shotover...but you did say you can never have too many of these😀.

Jon

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:47 pm

Many thanks Jon.

2579/Dick Turpin is one of quite a few that I haven't previously come across any info on their working so this of interest.

Also, had been thinking of adding 'Queen of Scots' to my express formations (but, if I understand correctly this will entail serious expenditure on a number of 'All- Steel' Pullman coaches). However, your QOS loco info will be most helpful for that if I do.

Graeme

kudu
GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
Posts: 562
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:34 am

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by kudu » Sun Sep 02, 2018 5:55 am

Graeme Leary wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:41 pm
Can't have too many of these fine beasts on a layout depicting that period.
Actually, eighty would be too many, I think, but maybe you're not quite there yet. I'm sure many of us would appreciate seeing any photos when you're ready.

Kudu

Graeme Leary
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
Posts: 618
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:43 pm

Re: West Riding Pullman locos

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Sep 04, 2018 10:18 pm

Interesting observation kudu and some years back there was an article in (I think) 'Model Rail' magazine on a modeller who in fact had replicated every A1/A3s (and also the 34/35/36 A4's - not sure exactly how many with renaming). Now that's what I call dedication and had been tempted myself to do all the A4s but only made it to 13 when space (and the exchequer) prevented me completing the entire number.

Need some instruction on posting photos on the forum but will get on to it and show my completed WRP.

Graeme

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