what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
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what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
99% of you will have more knowledge when it comes to paint shades than I do and I plan to start getting my rear into gear and getting some projects started this year, so my question is what is the generally agreed upon "go-to" paint brand amongst this forum for overall shade accuracy?
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905
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36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
This is one of those difficult areas. As folk view the various colours slightly differently. Another problem being the ifferent works tended to mix their paints differently too. It was legend has it that the shade of Apple Green applied by North Road [the North Eastern works at Darlington] was a marginally different shade to that applied by the Plant [the Great Northern works at Doncaster].
- kimballthurlow
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
I am of the persuasion that a paint company like Humbrol know what they are doing.
They have been doing it for a long time.
They list the following colours for their range of enamel tinlets:
Loco apple green #131
Loco garter blue #221
Freight red oxide #133
Rolling stock brown - H suggest a mix, but I found #186 does it for me.
Black - your choice.
regards
Kimball
They have been doing it for a long time.
They list the following colours for their range of enamel tinlets:
Loco apple green #131
Loco garter blue #221
Freight red oxide #133
Rolling stock brown - H suggest a mix, but I found #186 does it for me.
Black - your choice.
regards
Kimball
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
This is indeed a vexing question.
Whilst I try to use Humbrol where possible I would never use 131 for LNER green. I did about 30 years ago and it was way too light so at that time I ended up trying to mix my own by darkening 131 with 104 (GW loco green). 133 is fine for LNER goods stock red oxide.
Either Precision or Railmatch are the best alternatives but they don't have the coverage of Humbrol IMHO. Precision (now Pheonix I think) probably covers better than Railmatch but I did think Railmatch was a better colour but now tend to think perhaps it is too light and not dense enough green?
I thought that when Hornby produced their Gresley A1 about 2005 that the colour wasn't bad but since those days most of their more recent LNER green locos are all too dark IMHO.
Also being in Australia is another problem for me as we can't get Railmatch or Precision paints by post anymore and no one stocks them in this country. So I'll be buying some when I visit UK in 3 months time.
Also the light in which the colour is viewed is so critical to how it looks.
I will be watching others response with great interest.
Andrew Emmett
Whilst I try to use Humbrol where possible I would never use 131 for LNER green. I did about 30 years ago and it was way too light so at that time I ended up trying to mix my own by darkening 131 with 104 (GW loco green). 133 is fine for LNER goods stock red oxide.
Either Precision or Railmatch are the best alternatives but they don't have the coverage of Humbrol IMHO. Precision (now Pheonix I think) probably covers better than Railmatch but I did think Railmatch was a better colour but now tend to think perhaps it is too light and not dense enough green?
I thought that when Hornby produced their Gresley A1 about 2005 that the colour wasn't bad but since those days most of their more recent LNER green locos are all too dark IMHO.
Also being in Australia is another problem for me as we can't get Railmatch or Precision paints by post anymore and no one stocks them in this country. So I'll be buying some when I visit UK in 3 months time.
Also the light in which the colour is viewed is so critical to how it looks.
I will be watching others response with great interest.
Andrew Emmett
Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
Precision Phoenix is the best for
Doncaster Green matches earlier Hornby Green I agree the Hornby current version is too dark
Doncaster Green again Precision
Teak best colour for NPCS etc
Coronation and Tourist Coaches
Railmatch
Doncaster Green matches Bachmann version
Garter Blue is the best match for Hornby . Precision version is much darker (doesn't mean that its the wrong shade)
Freight vehicles
Grey any shade of mid grey
Red Oxide I use Halfords spray cans
Doncaster Green matches earlier Hornby Green I agree the Hornby current version is too dark
Doncaster Green again Precision
Teak best colour for NPCS etc
Coronation and Tourist Coaches
Railmatch
Doncaster Green matches Bachmann version
Garter Blue is the best match for Hornby . Precision version is much darker (doesn't mean that its the wrong shade)
Freight vehicles
Grey any shade of mid grey
Red Oxide I use Halfords spray cans
- greenglade
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
In a word 'Pheonix' with Craftmaster second...
Colour is a difficult thing to judge, more so when talking of paint before the true synthetic paints arrived in the 40's. Prior to that the colour was effected greatly depending on how many coats of varnish was applied, being generally of a 'linseed oil' it made the colour darker. The more coats applied the darker it got and this is before you add grime from use to the mix. Then there is 'light', you can't paint a model from the same tin as used on the full size as they reflect light differently due to the size differences and thus the model will always look darker. Also when the real colours were mixed during winter periods they would be done so at set times when the most light was present, so an hour or two either side of midday or they wouldn't be a true match if such a thing exists?
Now when BR formed they set up the 'Derby Surface Coatings Lab, who collected samples of all of the prior railway liveries available and archived them on sample plates including details of varnish coats. These same samples were used for mixing the colours produced by Pheonix, this information is from Bob (sorry don't know your surname) and given recently on a model engineering forum where the subject was discussed in great detail. Bob being involved in the paints industry with paints supplied to BR was the guy responsible for the colours mixed, so you could say this info is from the 'horses mouth'
Pete
Colour is a difficult thing to judge, more so when talking of paint before the true synthetic paints arrived in the 40's. Prior to that the colour was effected greatly depending on how many coats of varnish was applied, being generally of a 'linseed oil' it made the colour darker. The more coats applied the darker it got and this is before you add grime from use to the mix. Then there is 'light', you can't paint a model from the same tin as used on the full size as they reflect light differently due to the size differences and thus the model will always look darker. Also when the real colours were mixed during winter periods they would be done so at set times when the most light was present, so an hour or two either side of midday or they wouldn't be a true match if such a thing exists?
Now when BR formed they set up the 'Derby Surface Coatings Lab, who collected samples of all of the prior railway liveries available and archived them on sample plates including details of varnish coats. These same samples were used for mixing the colours produced by Pheonix, this information is from Bob (sorry don't know your surname) and given recently on a model engineering forum where the subject was discussed in great detail. Bob being involved in the paints industry with paints supplied to BR was the guy responsible for the colours mixed, so you could say this info is from the 'horses mouth'
Pete
Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
greenglade has the answer to the paint shades that to my mind are the most accurate i.e. Phoenix Precision.
Historically the LNER Society (as it then was) was asked to assist Humbrol with the formulation and matching of their authentic range, the aim being to produce an accurate match of the original (LNER) company colours which covered well and was lightened slightly to be suitable for 4mm scale models. Then Bob Shephard of Precision came along in the 1970s and as stated in the previous post produced a range which was matched with information 'from the horses mouth'.
The two then continued in parallel until the disastrous Humbrol fire after which the Authentic range was discontinued. I do not believe that the current Humbrol product is matched as well as the old range nor does it seem to have so fine a pigment, but I may be wrong. I am still using tins of Humbrol authentic colours and Precision which are now over forty years old. Providing they are very well stirred each use and well sealed, both makes last for years.
I have not had any great success with any other makes.
Historically the LNER Society (as it then was) was asked to assist Humbrol with the formulation and matching of their authentic range, the aim being to produce an accurate match of the original (LNER) company colours which covered well and was lightened slightly to be suitable for 4mm scale models. Then Bob Shephard of Precision came along in the 1970s and as stated in the previous post produced a range which was matched with information 'from the horses mouth'.
The two then continued in parallel until the disastrous Humbrol fire after which the Authentic range was discontinued. I do not believe that the current Humbrol product is matched as well as the old range nor does it seem to have so fine a pigment, but I may be wrong. I am still using tins of Humbrol authentic colours and Precision which are now over forty years old. Providing they are very well stirred each use and well sealed, both makes last for years.
I have not had any great success with any other makes.
Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
Current Humbrol Apple Green is simply dire .
- Atlantic 3279
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
As far as I can see Humbrol do not claim for the UK market that ANY of their ENAMELS are authentic railway colours. Enamel 131 is listed as "Mid Green Satin", not Apple Green. There's an acrylic that purports to be Apple Green, but note what Mick says about the shade, and in my view all acrylics of the kind that come in tinlets for brush application are second-rate paints at best. Whatever is in the so called super-acrylics in car aerosols makes them much better, but not suitable for smooth brush application and certainly not for successful over-coating by brush as they behave in certain ways like cellulose.
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
I've tried Humbrol's apple green- the acrylic type- and can only echo what has already been said about it. Specifically, I found that it just would not give a good coat- even after three or four coats on a light grey primer- it lacked anything in the way of coverage.
In fact, with most of Humbrol's acrylics I have found that to get a good result I have to use them in concert with another colour. A few coats of apple green on top of a few coats of Revell 'Leaf Green' gives a far better result than using the acrylic alone- not just with the coverage but also with the depth and hue of the finish.
In fact, with most of Humbrol's acrylics I have found that to get a good result I have to use them in concert with another colour. A few coats of apple green on top of a few coats of Revell 'Leaf Green' gives a far better result than using the acrylic alone- not just with the coverage but also with the depth and hue of the finish.
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
looks like phoenix paints it is
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905
36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947
- kimballthurlow
- GCR D11 4-4-0 'Improved Director'
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
A very interesting post.2512silverfox wrote:greenglade has the answer to the paint shades that to my mind are the most accurate i.e. Phoenix Precision.
........ until the disastrous Humbrol fire after which the Authentic range was discontinued. I do not believe that the current Humbrol product is matched as well as the old range nor does it seem to have so fine a pigment, but I may be wrong. I am still using tins of Humbrol authentic colours and Precision which are now over forty years old. Providing they are very well stirred each use and well sealed, both makes last for years.
I have not had any great success with any other makes.
I have the same experience with Humbrol enamels, tins that were purchased in the late 1960s, are still being used.
Use a smear of vaseline around the lid, leave a few drops of thinners inside, and ensure there is no excess paint around the rim.
A few of their authentic colours with HR.. on the lids remain in my stock.
Humbrol quote LNER Apple Green (for #131) only in their "Colour System" binder book, which was intended reading for anyone requiring assistance for blends. I suspect that it was aimed at large bulk users, such as toy manufacturers. I think it cost the equivalent of 10 tinlets, when I purchased it 20 years ago. In the hobby shop and give-away charts, #131 is listed simply as Satin Mid Green, as you would for a market beyond model trains.
As other users have pointed out, colour application and reading of, is affected by a huge number of variables, such as ambient light, undercoating, number of applications, varnish and finishes. Humbrol in their System book, do quote an application of a clear finish for many of the gloss and matt colours, often #135, Satin Varnish.
regards
Kimball
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Re: what paint company (eg Pheonix, Railmatch, Humbrol, etc.) has the most accurate shades for LNER colours
I'd stick with Phoenix or Railmatch if you want a genuine looking finish for your colours. Humbrols current RailMatch range of acrylics are, at best, diabolical. I have painted three apple green and one garter blue locomotives using the Humbrol options. They were done on the cheap (HUGE mistake), but it was my only choice at the time as I didn't have access to either Phoenix or Railmatch paints.
The Humbrol Apple Green is anaemic compared to the green that is applied to R-T-R LNER locomotives, as is the Garter Blue. The best way to describe it would be a comparison made by an old Gorton Works man, who worked there when the Great Central Railway had just been swallowed up into the LNER - the new [LNER] colour of apple green is so anaemic compared to the old [GCR] green that it will be good to get the locos into black.
The Humbrol Apple Green is anaemic compared to the green that is applied to R-T-R LNER locomotives, as is the Garter Blue. The best way to describe it would be a comparison made by an old Gorton Works man, who worked there when the Great Central Railway had just been swallowed up into the LNER - the new [LNER] colour of apple green is so anaemic compared to the old [GCR] green that it will be good to get the locos into black.
Brian
Anything weird or unusual will catch my interest, be it an express or locomotive
I'm also drawn to the commemorative, let's hope Bachmann will produce 6165 Valour.
Anything weird or unusual will catch my interest, be it an express or locomotive
I'm also drawn to the commemorative, let's hope Bachmann will produce 6165 Valour.